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Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 30 Dec 2017, 11:55:16

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
baha wrote:The truth is we aren't really living now...We stay in our climate controlled boxes with our noses stuck in a video screen. We need opioids to dull the pain of our boring existence. There are too many people and not enough meaningful things to do...

That's a matter of perspective. It depends on your situation, and your attitude depends on your past experiences.

For example, for many first world kids now, it's normal to rarely go out and play. It's normal to have mandatory walking in PE class in grade schools in the rural US, because so many kids are so obese and won't even walk more than they have to unless you force them. (I am not making this up. My girlfriends' school was doing that 15 years ago, and I can't imagine it getting any better on average).

And yet, if you ask these kids if they're happy, if they can log on and play World of Warcraft (or similar) with their South Korean or Japanese friends, they're good to go in many cases. To them, that's living.

Things change very fast now. Change brings new problems and new opportunities. While I hear what you're saying and recognize the problems (especially health) of living stuck in the information stream, that's as normal a mode of living as doing farm work after school was to kids 100 years ago, and rural kids much less than that.


I agree wholeheartedly with both of you :-D Living is degraded but if you were born into it, how would you know or even care?

A psychologist once tried explaining how depression is all in the mind telling me that experiments with monkeys show that a dominant male transferred to a cage where he was no longer dominant and no longer had access to females would show signs of depression. His point was that we should learn to cope. I would gladly supply that monkey with a knife to slid his own throat. That's how we are!
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 30 Dec 2017, 21:49:44

Back when I grew up, the sidewalks rolled up at 5. The latest thing open was the grocery store and they closed at 9pm.

There was literally NOTHING to do. Read a lot of books.

There were 3 stations, CBS, NBC, and ABC. They signed off at midnight. Nearly all of the radio stations (all AM) had dawn to dusk operating licenses.

I feel no nostalgia whatsoever. You would have to drag me kicking and screaming to go back to that.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 00:16:18

But you probably had better sleeping habits! :-D

I'm not altogether joking, though:

Scientists have discovered a revolutionary new treatment that makes you live longer. It enhances your memory, makes you more attractive. It keeps you slim and lowers food cravings. It protects you from cancer and dementia. It wards off colds and flu. It lowers your risk of heart attacks and stroke, not to mention diabetes. You’ll even feel happier, less depressed, and less anxious. Are you interested?


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/ ... ker-review
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 09:29:36

In our own way, in our little world, we are recreating that past world. And yes, our sleeping habits are much better.

When in the city I feel very much out of place and time. Uncomfortable.
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sleep deprived fools

Unread postby Whitefang » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 09:42:21

First a warm and happy New Year to all :-D

Agree with the need for sleep, not speed.
To be sleep deprived undermines everything

Survival trip is a no go, in a way we are all on this survival trip, Earth spinning and we humanity holding on to our madness, our manageable world.
Even no last minute camper trip to the Swiss Alps, Berner Oberland, only an easy 800 km day drive with family, no loot for the diesel yet but next summer up to Scotland after crossing the channel, only 120 euro for a ferry round trip with camper, Calais/Dover.

I remember my youngest, daughter Nermin playing GTA, holding a 9 mm standing on a roof aiming at a police chopper hundreds of meters away. Look dad, head shot...three times in a row, she could barely speak but already a near prof.gamer at PS. Last of us is a neat game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZesQXSyxo

My boys grew up with PS3 survival horror games, our favourite kind.
Just bought an external backup for ps4, Seagate 2T, amazing buy at Amazon, delivered next week, enough room to store anything, even lots of games, they are around 10/20 Gbytes these days....amazing.

Doomstead on the Rif is looking up, plenty winterrain, busy to get building license, extra ground for small shop and to park a truck.

Yes we will have far less machines around us to operate, especially after the crash........economy/grid/water and food.
I do think we will get something back after the hardships that are on the track before us, a chanche on a rebirth, to get to know our true selves.
A return to the mystery that is in and around us.

One has to prepare for such a blow, alike going mad, you suddenly find yourself in a totally different world. Try stop talking to yourself and you will see what I mean, hihi. You cannot say to yourself to stop talking but there are ways to get there, to strive for internal silence I mean. To be at the windy side, to maintain your attention without loosing your mind totally.....bbbbrrrr, scary thing. 8O
To stand at the edge of everything and peek into the unknown.
To open the bubble we are living.
To die, then keep on living.
Insane in the brain.

Only one disease, indulging in listening to an internal corrupt person.
At mediëval times they tried to cut it out of our brains, no luck.
We have to accept our internal dialogue when growing up and take care of our physical body but we can also laugh at it and throw it away, our importance, our petty little fears, our indulgences.....they are all based on it, self pity in disguise. We are more than our minds and body makes us believe.

I believe we are all much better than our minds make us think, our petty personalities are not our true nature.
We are all into a battle with ourselves, our two mindsets, the Jihad.
We are magical beings stuck on a chicken coop, imprisoned by culture, cities.
A worldwide affair that started with agriculture, after leaving that Eden garden.
Allright, enough babble.......Climate Chaos right? :oops:

https://weather.com/storms/winter/news/ ... east-coast

Unfortunately, at this time, there is an extreme amount of uncertainty regarding whether this will actually happen, and if it does happen, the precise timing and who may be affected.
Welcome to the world of winter weather forecasting.

What we do know is a strong southward plunge of the jet stream will sharpen up this weekend over the Great Lakes and East, providing the jet stream energy that could, in theory, spin up an East Coast storm.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby baha » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 09:07:37

It should be very clear what I have done to prepare for the future. I have surfed Peakoil.com, evaluated and considered every opinion, and then addressed each issue I find credible in turn.

Every issue to do with infrastructure, assault by natural forces, or dependence has been addressed in my house. It's not a doomstead, it's the center of the next societal revolution. I can support myself in a very big way. I even have excess I can use to help others (and to trade for chickens). If there is a crash, I will be watching and waiting to implement the next step.

I don't pretend the answer is isolation. The answer is cooperation and focus. So many people will be lost and adrift. I will give them a center and a direction. Let's see you get that from TPTB.

If there is no crash, I am still independent. My only bills are communications and taxes. When Social Security goes away, the price of maintaining solar equipment will go up :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.
I will see your google and raise you an infinity!

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 10:52:41

Baja,

Have you looked at the reliability of your systems?

What do you do if a critical component craps out? How reliant are you on suppliers?

These are things that bother me. We have a Yanmar engine, good piece of kit. It twice Ive been stuck because something pretty common was needed and not readily available. I now carry a spare head gasket.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby baha » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 11:40:54

Hi Newfie :)
I have considered reliability but mostly in the form of simplicity.

I am totally dependent on parts suppliers for replacements. But most things (like pumps and heaters) are not tied to a particular manufacturer and could be replaced as a unit. Solar equipment must come from Solaredge but that is just second option.

First option is the grid, second is the PV and battery, third is LP gas heater and a candle :)

Each system has some kind of second option. I can use a DC powered pump I have to get water out of the well...The well casing is 18" in diameter and only 28 feet deep. I could drop a small bucket down there if I had to.

There will always be critical points of failure. So you need options to get you thru until you can fix it. I also have tools galore and a welder. And I know how to use them.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.
I will see your google and raise you an infinity!

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 13:20:03

Science is now making ever more tight connections between CC and 'stuck' Rossby waves. So Climate Chaos is likely about to get a whole lot more...chaotic...


Michael E. Mann et al. (2017), "Influence of Anthropogenic Climate Change on Planetary Wave Resonance and Extreme Weather Events", Scientific Reports 7, Article number: 45242, doi:10.1038/srep45242

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep45242

Abstract: "Persistent episodes of extreme weather in the Northern Hemisphere summer have been shown to be associated with the presence of high-amplitude quasi-stationary atmospheric Rossby waves within a particular wavelength range (zonal wavenumber 6–8). The underlying mechanistic relationship involves the phenomenon of quasi-resonant amplification (QRA) of synoptic-scale waves with that wavenumber range becoming trapped within an effective mid-latitude atmospheric waveguide. Recent work suggests an increase in recent decades in the occurrence of QRA-favorable conditions and associated extreme weather, possibly linked to amplified Arctic warming and thus a climate change influence. Here, we isolate a specific fingerprint in the zonal mean surface temperature profile that is associated with QRA-favorable conditions. State-of-the-art (“CMIP5”) historical climate model simulations subject to anthropogenic forcing display an increase in the projection of this fingerprint that is mirrored in multiple observational surface temperature datasets. Both the models and observations suggest this signal has only recently emerged from the background noise of natural variability."
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dissident » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:46:21

1) The impact of more thermal energy on middle latitude non-zonality of the westerlies and increasing instances of blocking events is not new.

2) The waffle language in these articles makes me cringe. There is no "may" in the impact of both Arctic warming and extra thermal energy in the global atmosphere-ocean system. There are deterministic, causal impacts which we are seeing. As long as climate researchers treat random-based statistics as their one and only tool (hammer), then every problem looks like random noise (nail). Variability is not randomness in the atmosphere system. It is a non-linear superposition of deterministic processes. Too bad researchers have basically no tools to analyse the morphology of the atmosphere-ocean state and resort to Gaussian statistics. Gaussian statistics have no value by themselves and require understanding of the deterministic processes involved.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 12:56:36

Yes, 'scientific reticence' sometimes drives me crazy.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 14:17:29

For Dissident and others. Can we expect the clathrate gun to go off and other exponentially fast climate change inducing effects IMMEDIATELY after the Arctic is relatively ice-free? And will these effects trigger a mass die off in human population because of fall off in agricultural production etc?
This seems to be what Guy McPherson is claiming, in essence loss of human habitat
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dissident » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 20:16:38

onlooker wrote:For Dissident and others. Can we expect the clathrate gun to go off and other exponentially fast climate change inducing effects IMMEDIATELY after the Arctic is relatively ice-free? And will these effects trigger a mass die off in human population because of fall off in agricultural production etc?
This seems to be what Guy McPherson is claiming, in essence loss of human habitat


We had the bloody ESAS debate on this board a while back. On the time scale of 100 years I see evidence of huge changes. I read the "Clathrate Gun" monograph and it makes a good case for relatively small CH4 releases leading to warming periods during the glaciation phases over the last 3.3 million years. We are now dealing with something different. It is more like the CH4 nuke. And ocean anoxia is the 800 lb gorilla in the room not seen even by many climate scientists.

In my view, a pure clathrate melt driven warming feedback is slower than the looming ocean anoxia driven warming. The former requires warming to burrow deep enough in the oceans to destablize seabed clathrates. The latter has no equivalent waiting period and will make sure that the ocean waters warm enough to destabilize the seabed clathrates.

If you look at the pink limestone layer associated with the Iridium layer that led to the impactor induced extinction theory for dinosaurs, then you will see an inconsistency. An impactor would have produced at most two years of global cooling with winter summers in the middle latitudes (not in the tropics). It would not have killed off animal life in the oceans even if it could have killed off unadapted animal life outside the tropics. The two year figures comes from how long any plausible fine mode aerosol loading could last in the atmosphere:

1) the residence time of aerosols decreases with altitude since density falls off exponentially with height

2) the troposphere is scoured by cloud process clean of most aerosols; aerosols seed cloud and are precipitated out

The pink limestone layer shows that the oceans were anoxic for tens of thousands of years. It seems that the impactor hit around the time of climate tipping point and what did in the dinosaurs (on land and in the seas) was a major warming event and not some short lived dust-load cooling event. There is indication we are on the brink of another pink limestone epoch.

By 2100 humanity is basically guaranteed to be up the proverbial creek without a paddle. There will not be any "singularity" and techno-utopia. None of our technology has ever come without a heavy pollution price. For some reason people think that their iphones are squeaky clean. And food originates in the oceans and the soil (greenhouse operations notwithstanding). Anyone who thinks humans do not depend on the planet for survival is a certifiable idiot. The planet is about to undergo a warming induced mass extinction event.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 22:33:44

"Clathrate Gun" monograph
link?

ocean anoxia is the 800 lb gorilla in the room not seen even by many climate scientists.


I'm pretty sure Peter Ward sees it, but maybe I'm misinterpreting him or you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtHlsUDVVy0

(~5 years old now)

Also, how much do we know about the sea bed in ESAS. Is it utterly lifeless? If not, might there be some burrowing creatures there which may become more active as things warm? And even if it is now (which I doubt), might not new creatures be migrating into these newly warmed waters (I'm quite sure they are), some of which may be active burrowers? Couldn't these provide pathways for warm water to get directly down to deeper layers of sediment without having to depend on slow radiative transfer?...Just some thoughts that waft about in my feverish brain...
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dissident » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 00:04:06

dohboi wrote:
"Clathrate Gun" monograph
link?

ocean anoxia is the 800 lb gorilla in the room not seen even by many climate scientists.


I'm pretty sure Peter Ward sees it, but maybe I'm misinterpreting him or you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtHlsUDVVy0

(~5 years old now)

Also, how much do we know about the sea bed in ESAS. Is it utterly lifeless? If not, might there be some burrowing creatures there which may become more active as things warm? And even if it is now (which I doubt), might not new creatures be migrating into these newly warmed waters (I'm quite sure they are), some of which may be active burrowers? Couldn't these provide pathways for warm water to get directly down to deeper layers of sediment without having to depend on slow radiative transfer?...Just some thoughts that waft about in my feverish brain...


Dynamical timescales in the oceans are vastly slower than in the atmosphere. Nobody who has not conducted ocean model studies has any gut feeling about the timescales. This would include pretty much everyone on this board. Biotic activity on the seabed is a function of the local temperature and not the surface temperature. Until the seabed warms up, don't expect any actual change. You were part of the ESAS bomb crowd that predicted imminent mass gas release. You had no basis for your gut feelings.

Ward buys into the instant extinction from the impactor theory. He says nothing about the thick layers of pink limestone that overlap the thin irridium layer. The anoxic regime is a CH4 and H2S emission regime associated with warming of the oceans and not with any cooling, as opposed to the regular CO2 emission regime. For both regimes the process is remineralization of detritus rain. So life does not shut down in the upper ocean layer, which remains oxic.

We have had mass extinction events in the past fully linked to the formation of the pink limestone strata reflecting ocean anoxia. We do not need instant Hollywood schlock fiction meteor cataclysm death. A 10 km ball of rock would not have killed off all macro life on the planet. The oceans would have experienced impressive tsunamis, but their contents would not have been dumped over land. Ward and the rest of the believers are mistaking correlation for causation. If the irridium layer was not imbedded in the pink limestone strata it would have been substantially more convincing. In the video he talks about a 1 year period as any of the data he has ever worked with has such resolution. He is engaging in BS based on a bait and switch. Since the impactor event was short lived (2 years) he can rightly claim high temporal resolution. But the rest of the rock strata analysis only gives him a resolution of several thousand years. As it stands, the attribution is being based on pure faith.

There is nothing to dismiss the irridium layer as being basically an additional stressor and not the one and only. Physics puts limits on how much a 10 km diameter rock ball could do to wipe out higher life on the planet. Life is fragile but the impact was not sufficiently long lasting to do the serious damage. Ocean anoxia can and does kill of higher life forms in the oceans. Given all the other mass extinction events associated with warming, the land is no refuge during warming events.

As for the Clathrate Gun Hypothesis, here is the monograph link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1029/054SP

I read the paper back print version about six years ago.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 05:22:44

Given all the other mass extinction events associated with warming, the land is no refuge during warming events.--- Sorry to intervene your technical discussion but this relates to me what I read about hydrogen sulfide and it's role in poisoning land life after the oceans experience this Ocean anoxi and die off. I post this article that points to this dynamic as central to the Mass Extinction Event
Just curious to hear more expert elaboration from Dissident who in my layman opinion sounds the most knowledgeable and credible in his assessment of this topic https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 063957.htm
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 05:27:06

Also, would not die off of plankton reduce dramatically oxygen levels for land creatures?
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 09:12:20

dohboi wrote:Also, how much do we know about the sea bed in ESAS. Is it utterly lifeless? If not, might there be some burrowing creatures there which may become more active as things warm? And even if it is now (which I doubt), might not new creatures be migrating into these newly warmed waters (I'm quite sure they are), some of which may be active burrowers? Couldn't these provide pathways for warm water to get directly down to deeper layers of sediment without having to depend on slow radiative transfer?...Just some thoughts that waft about in my feverish brain...


Back in the 1960's the USSR imported Alaskan King Crab from off their Pacific coast on the Kamchatka Peninsula to the Barents Sea which has a similar climate. These giant crabs now number in the tens of millions and have spread at least through the adjoining Norwegian Sea and the Kara Sea because the bottom water on the shelf is warm enough to support their entire life cycle including reproduction. The crucial question is have they made it as far back east as the Laptev Sea? Once they are able to spread that far the ESAS will be an open smorgasbord to them. On the other hand by the time the sea warms that much in the Arctic shelf they made have already spread under their own impetus up the Pacific coast and through the Bering Strait into the ESAS from the other side. No matter if they come from east or west at some point these giant King Crab will be roaming the ESAS seeking all they may devour.

In addition to the deliberately introduced King Crabs other species are being accidentally transplanted to the Arctic seas as well and once established trying to get rid of them is almost pointless. This story got my attention because Zebra and Quagga mussels came into the Great Lakes accidentally in ballast water and massively changed the ecosystem where I live. The continental shelf is basically continuous from northern Greenland and going west all the way around the Arctic to Great Britain. The only substantial break is two openings between Iceland and Great Britain and between Iceland and Greenland. Even at that though the basin lip is lower than the continental shelf its actually only a few hundred feet deeper and some continental shelf dwelling species may be able to cross these two gaps as well.

Among the participants on board for this leg of the trip was Kim Howland, a research scientist with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, who joined C3 to continue a DNA sampling study that has been part of the expedition's science mission since its voyage began in June.

Unlike the easy-to-spot passengers from the Crystal Serenity, the visitors that Dr. Howland is most concerned about are hidden invaders that could soon be arriving in these waters as climate change opens the doors to increased maritime traffic.

Dr. Howland's focus is on the invasive species that can travel across oceans in the ballast water of commercial ships and that have a devastating impact when they arrive in places where they don't belong.

"The Arctic hasn't had to face this problem until now," said Dr. Howland, who is part of DFO's Arctic Research Division, based in Winnipeg. "But with ongoing warming and declines in sea ice making these waters more navigable – and more hospitable – it's a real concern."

The DNA study Dr. Howland and her colleagues is conducting is aimed at giving scientists and officials a fair warning about precisely what is coming to Canada's northern seas. Rather than look for individual specimens of an invading species which may or may not be present, the study scoops up free-floating DNA from the water, searching for genetic traces of animals that are not native to the region. Because the C3 ship is making one continuous trip through the Arctic from east to west, it can provide a snapshot of where things stand in each region and how those regions compare.

For those who live along the Great Lakes, where zebra mussels have been a scourge since they arrived in the 1980s, the problem of invasive species is not new. Similarly, Atlantic Canada has been coping with its share of interlopers. They include the European green crab, a tenacious predator that out-competes native species and can have a destabilizing effect on intertidal ecosystems – all to the detriment to local fisheries. Another threat is the common periwinkle, a type of sea snail that also originated in Europe, and which the strains the marine food chain by eating all the algae in sight, as well as transmitting a parasite that affects fish.

Historically, these and other creatures were not deemed a threat to Arctic waters, as it was presumed the harsh conditions there would prohibit their growth. But Dr. Howland has just co-authored a modelling study which suggests that this is no longer the case for some potential invaders, and it will become less so as time goes on.

"The motivation was to try to understand the threat of the arrival of new species in a region where we don't have too much information," said Jesica Goldsmit, a postdoctoral researcher with DFO and lead author of the study, which was accepted for publication last week in the journal Biological Invasions.

In the study, the researchers looked at how eight invasive species might fare in the Arctic 50 years from now based on climate forecasts. The result: "We're predicting that all the species we modelled would survive," Dr. Howland said. While the degrees to which the species are likely to migrate northward vary, all of them would find a suitable habitat somewhere in the Arctic by the end of the 50-year run, the model shows. And all of them pose a threat to the ecosystem and traditional ways of life.

One of the locations at highest risk is the relatively warmer Hudson Bay, which is considered an Arctic ecosystem even though it dips well below the Arctic Circle. Another is the Beaufort Sea, above the coast of Alaska and Western Canada, which is open to shipping coming up through the Bering Strait.

Less clear is what will happen among the maze of channels and islands that makes up the central portion of Canada's High Arctic – also known as the Kitikmeot region – where the marine biology is far less explored. This is part of what has motivated Dr. Howland and other researchers who are participating in the C3, as well as others who are conducting studies in the area. And it's clear there is little time left to gather the baseline data before region is further transformed by warming temperatures and increased shipping traffic.

Sea and land alike are affected by climate change. Jeff Saarela, a botanist and director of the Canadian Museum of Nature's Centre for Arctic Knowledge and Exploration, was also on the C3 last week, armed with a permit to collect plants as part of the expedition. Taking advantage of the ship's frequent stops in places that few scientists have ever been able to access, he spent much of the voyage with his knees in the dirt, trowel in hand, extracting specimens.

"We know the Arctic is the fastest-warming part of the planet, and we know that species are responding," Dr. Saarela said. "To document when something has moved, you have to know what was there before."

Along the voyage there were hints of the transformation to come. After leaving Cambridge Bay, expedition leaders nosed their ship west and south to the now uninhabited hamlet of Bathurst Inlet.


More on the Canadian study taking place HERE
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Seabed to surface, gas underneath

Unread postby Whitefang » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 09:56:31

Diss,

You were part of the ESAS bomb crowd that predicted imminent mass gas release. You had no basis for your gut feelings.
Ward buys into the instant extinction from the impactor theory. He says nothing about the thick layers of pink limestone that overlap the thin irridium layer. The anoxic regime is a CH4 and H2S emission regime associated with warming of the oceans and not with any cooling, as opposed to the regular CO2 emission regime. For both regimes the process is remineralization of detritus rain. So life does not shut down in the upper ocean layer, which remains oxic.


Dear Diss, I wish it were different,

Mass gas release is not imminent but ongoing as we speak/write.
Seasurface temperatures have been spiking, like our changing climate, abruptly.
Look at he data, 12 degrees F above normal, the already warm, heated 1981-2011 period. 2700 ppb methane anomaly......
ESAS with an avarage dept of 50 meters means seabed warms up as well.
Shakova has done temp measurements to dept of water/seabed/relic permafrost.
Warm current headed Northwest is not a surface thing alone, a massive volume like that does not spread like oil on water.Maybe sweet water spreads like a thin layer on the surface like melt from GIS.

http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/

The image on the right shows warm water from the North Atlantic arriving near Svalbard. How warm is the water beneath the surface of the Arctic Ocean? The image below gives an indication, showing how much warmer the water was from October 1, 2017, to December 30, 2017, at selected areas near Svalbard, where warm water from the North Atlantic dives under the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean, carried by the Gulf Stream.


I read Wards Under a green skye a decade ago, thought he made the case that 4 out of the past 5 extinctions were climate driven and not by alien rock banging mother Earth. Could be wrong on that but it looks pretty grim on the methane issue, I'd love to see a different outcome so please do your best to make me see that the ESAS is as stable as it has been for a million years or so.
At least the upcoming 50 years so I can roam this Earth with infrastructures intact. :) Love to drive 8)

Tanada, that Guy Mcph. is teaching to accept our fate, our death as a personal affair, to live with this knowledge everyday, to let go of hope, fear etc.
To use death as an advisor to make the right choices now, this moment and feelings which is all we have, freedom to live now, to let go of past and future.
Ooh, on that piece of crab, I bet they taste great!
Seafood is easier to catch then hunting , trapping and gathering.
Last edited by Whitefang on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 10:36:01, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dissident » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 10:16:35

onlooker wrote:Given all the other mass extinction events associated with warming, the land is no refuge during warming events.--- Sorry to intervene your technical discussion but this relates to me what I read about hydrogen sulfide and it's role in poisoning land life after the oceans experience this Ocean anoxi and die off. I post this article that points to this dynamic as central to the Mass Extinction Event
Just curious to hear more expert elaboration from Dissident who in my layman opinion sounds the most knowledgeable and credible in his assessment of this topic https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 063957.htm


H2S has a rather short photochemical lifetime of about 9 days (compare to CH4 which lasts 10 years). But the primary ocean emissions regions would be coastal since most biotic activity is coastal. So its lifetime is long enough for substantial penetration over land. If ocean emissions reach toxic levels, then it is possible to kill off animal (and even plant) life near the coasts.

It is strange that the linked synopsis does not mention the H2S lifetime once. I am not knee jerk dismissing the potential reduced sulfur compound contribution to land extinctions, but a mechanism to explain the collapse of the hydroxyl sink for H2S needs to be provided. There would have been plenty of OH production in the atmosphere from H2O during the warming event in question. It is possible that both CH4 and H2S ocean production and emissions could have overwhelmed the OH production or, more precisely, the OH concentrations in the lower troposphere would have been reduced compared to non-anoxic periods (OH is formed from the reaction of H2O and O3 which requires formation of atomic oxygen, which is most efficient in the upper troposphere due to UV photolysis of O2).

If OH concentrations were too low in the lower troposphere, then H2S, CH4, CO and other toxic compounds could have accumulated in the near-surface atmospheric layer over land. There really needs to be more awareness of the global impact of ocean biochemistry.
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