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climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 May 2018, 06:03:15

Newfie wrote:Not a bad place to start:
Georgia Guide Stones

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
10. Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature.

Say whatever else you want about it but it makes sense!
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 18 May 2018, 07:06:27

onlooker wrote:
Newfie wrote:Not a bad place to start:
Georgia Guide Stones

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
10. Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature.

Say whatever else you want about it but it makes sense!


Let's really think a minute somewhere down the road when consequences align the collective to submit to a governing body that will be responsible for enforcement of such a set of guidelines.

If you take a moment and deeply consider this it will turn a fundamental principal we hold on its head. This will require the union of church and state, not the separation we hold in our current democracy.

These guidelines fuse together logistical policy with a spiritual orientation with our planet. That is why any culture that will achieve self regulation will do so on the two pillars of church and state.

We are talking about a culture that institutionalizes a set of spiritual principals that is reflected in public policy.

I have mentioned that any attempt to do this before the consequences is putting the cart before the horse. Because today we live in a secular world which is what is killing the planet.

The Amish were right.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 18 May 2018, 07:34:09

Interesting thought. It would require some common belief system, some common set of values to make it global. And also a willingness to not engage in wars of expansion.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 May 2018, 08:16:43

Newfie wrote:Interesting thought. It would require some common belief system, some common set of values to make it global. And also a willingness to not engage in wars of expansion.

I think Ibon has hinted numerous times that the impetus for this common set of values is the harrowing consequences to come. I agree :cry:
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Fri 18 May 2018, 09:58:32

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
Sounds like mandatory abortion and execution of the elderly

2. Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
State mandated birth control at the point of a gun

3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
Which language? So much for cultural differences. Speak Spanish or we will kill you

4. Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
The state will determine what are acceptable beliefs as long as its tempered according to their definition

5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
Let an outside body control your laws not subject to local jurisdiction.

6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
An unelected body determining how a nation conducts its affairs

7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
Agreed

8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
The collective will trample the individual. Mob rule

9. Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
Sounds like a religion

10. Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature.
If humans are in the way or interfere with nature, kill them.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 May 2018, 10:39:48

Cog, you are really being cynical. Despite you're assessment of me as a Communist, I agree that Government and hierarchical structure have proven woefully inadequate for humanity to evolve.
But, any group of people living together must observe and agree to some common rules and structure to their society. So it is not about being mandated to follow the Guide Stones but a consent from all people at large. Anarchy as a form of social order is in fact the way without any Govt per say
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Fri 18 May 2018, 11:21:43

The role of government is to protect the rights of the individual not the right of the collective. That is where you socialists/communists and assorted do-gooders go completely off the rails.

You can have the rule of law when protecting individual rights is the goal of government. But you can't have the social engineering that you are desiring at the same time. Those goals are mutually exclusive.

Reward good individuals and punish bad individuals. That is not anarchy. Its the fundamental way to run an orderly society.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 18 May 2018, 12:23:21

Cog wrote:The role of government is to protect the rights of the individual not the right of the collective.

no. We have armies, health codes and sewers to protect the rights of the everyone, ie collective.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 18 May 2018, 13:16:51

The role of government is to secure resources for it's people.

Always has been.

How those resources were distributed has typically been top down, as long as resource acquisition was maximized.

Maybe, that's our problem: Government.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Fri 18 May 2018, 14:11:12

The collective is nothing more than a group of individuals. Protecting all citizens against foreign invasion or other threats is protecting the individual. I might suggest that you social engineers read the Declaration and also the Constitution. Both were written and heavily influenced by the idea that the rights of the individual are supreme to the rights of the collective.

The mob or pure democracy is that very last thing the Founders intended. The good of the individual is the good of the State. If you want a mother, I suggest giving her a call to further your need to be mothered. A free man does not desire the state to act in that role.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 18 May 2018, 14:42:07

Cog,

You are really twisting around on that definition of individual vs collective.

None-the-less there is something to your line by line analysis of the Guides.

However there is some context missing. First, while no one knows for sure the language of the Guide is pretty careful, careful reading leads one to believe the Guide was written to address a population that had already collapsed to below 500 million and was struggling to recover. Assuming that context the guides take on a different meaning.

Back to your line by line analysis. Your comments are crude and blunt. They are worded to provide one possible interpretation and present in a very negative manner. My first comment to you is to challenge yourself to see if you can come up with more favorable answers. Just because you see the dark side does not mean there is no light.

Second, consider again these were written to address a post apocalyptic crowd, but are being read by us, the pre-apocalyptic crowd. In that light these guides are a premonition if the future to guard against what has just happened to bring humanity to its knees. From that perspective I challenge you to ask what can now be done to ward off this predicted world which you so despise.

Third, consider that had we previously adhered to the precepts of the Guide we would no be in the fix we find ourselves. There was a time when God provided certain rules to live by. They came down from a mountain on tablets. Not all who received those rules had the widom to accept them. It’s not so much about who prepared the rules but asking if they make some kind of sense and figuring out how to apply them.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Fri 18 May 2018, 17:30:07

I'd rather that humanity perish entirely, than to adopt the philosophy contained within the Georgia Guidestones. I see nothing in them that represent the supremacy of the individual but rather the complete suppression of individual freedom. What is the point of survival if I must bend every desire, want, and need to the collective? Just another name for slavery.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 18 May 2018, 17:43:32

Cog,

Yes, that is one interpretation of the implementation. There are other views.

Frankly I find the existing world very constraint on my personal liberty especially in the USA where we are under so much “guidance”. I feel far more free far away from the maddening crowd.

So for someone who likes to surrounded by folks then 7.5 billion must be heaven. I’m not that social, much more a loner, an individual who would like to roam around unimpressed by the state.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 May 2018, 17:48:23

Cog, you speak of the individual as though he/she lives in the world alone. That person lives among other individuals. Our species is a social species and our history is one of living together. Do you not concede that in order for a society which comes from the word social to function, individuals must be in unison agreeing on a set of values and priorities that inform this society on how everyone should live. This in order that all members mutually respect each others agreed on rights and priviledges. It comes down to responsibility. Wanting something that is inimical to the interests of others is destabilizing to the entire society. All individuals will benefit from this adherence to a common set of values and priorities. For now you can afford to think this way because affluence allows us in rich countries to be lone wolves and survive and even prosper.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 18 May 2018, 18:08:33

Cog wrote:I'd rather that humanity perish entirely, than to adopt the philosophy contained within the Georgia Guidestones. I see nothing in them that represent the supremacy of the individual but rather the complete suppression of individual freedom. What is the point of survival if I must bend every desire, want, and need to the collective? Just another name for slavery.


The supremacy of the individual is being threatened not by a competitive ideology but by the approaching physical constraints of human overshoot. This will change completely the dynamic between individual freedom and collective responsibility.

Let's take an example of people of religious persuasion. They yield to the supremacy of God and yet many would argue with you that they do so without suppressing their individual freedom. They would argue that their faith in God and their ability to surrender in that faith enhances their individuality in how this nourishes love, compassion and greater humility. I bring up this religious example for a reason.

A culture broken by the consequences of human overshoot may be very much willing to submit to public policy grounded in a spiritual foundation that will be focused on healing a biosphere degraded by our recent excesses. On the spiritual side there will be hunger in the collective for healing. On the physical side there will be a lack of abundant fossil fuels and degraded environments and there will be material sacrifices required of individuals so that the whole of society can maintain its integrity.

What Newfie mentioned about context is correct. You have to see these dynamics of the individual vs the collective and how that will shift as a result of moving through the consequences that we all know are coming.

Notice we are not really interested here in debating say individual freedom vs say socialism or communism. In the context of the past century that debate has to my satisfaction been put to rest. Capitalism during times of abundance, for all its flaws, was the superior system to enable individual freedom to flourish. In my own life I am direct beneficiary of this truth. The ideology of maximizing an individuals freedom has rested on abundant energy, a healthy environment, a stable climate, and an economic system that flourished because it could grow.

Of course the maximizing of personal freedom as it flourished globally in the past century was planting the seeds of its own demise, again not because some competing ideology was proving superior but because we have collectively been eroding and degrading the foundation on which our economic system has been functioning.

I fully expect a renaissance of cultural adaptation moving through the consequences of human overshoot that will undermine the ideologies that today we hold dear.

It is all about context.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 18 May 2018, 19:19:47

Georgia Guide Stones

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.


This is a pipe dream. The current global population is about 7.2 billion, and we'll hit 8 billion by about 2025.

2. Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.


There is no way to "guide reproduction wisely." The best we can hope for is for Medical science to continue to identify and cure human medical problems. As we learn more and more about DNA we are likely to see more genetic diseases cured. And expect to see totally genetically engineered babies fairly soon, I would guess.

3. Unite humanity with a living new language.


This is already happening. English is now the de facto global language. You can go just about anywhere on earth and you'll find English is everyone's second language (a lucky thing for us Americans).

4. Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.


This is an idealistic wish, but back in the real world humans will always be subject to emotions including destructive emotions like rage, and humans will always be subject to irrational ideas and passions. Its called human nature.

5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.


Again an idealistic wish. But human nature being what it is, some judges will inevitably be corrupt and some laws will inevitably be unfair and unjust and some rulers and governments will be unfair and despotic. It would be smarter to wish for divided government and democratic elections, where the power of the government is divided into multiple parts and is therefore limited and the power of courts is subject to review in higher courts, in the elected legislature, and ultimately in elections.

6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.


This is something that has already been agreed upon when countries join the UN and the world court system. However, just agreeing in principle is meaningless without some kind of enforcement mechanism and there is none. For instance, the Obama administration insisted for years that China's claims to the South China Sea should be adjudicated by an international tribunal, and the tribunal did rule against China, but that did nothing to stop China from seizing the whole of the South China Sea.

7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.


Sure. Sounds good. Avoid them if you can.

8. Balance personal rights with social duties.


Now we've moved from the international and national legal realm to the personal realm. And on a personal level, I don't think you can "balance" personal rights with social duties. I think personal rights are paramount. Thats why the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution is so important---it spells out that Americans' have basic rights under the constitution.

Social duties come after rights. Yes, we all have social duties, but these are up to the individual to decide about and to do. I don't want the "Georgia Guide" or anything or anyone else telling me what I have to do as part of my social duties. I will decide what I think is important to support and I will allocate my money and my volunteer time as I decide I want to do.


9. Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.


Floss your teeth and exercise and bathe daily and be nice to dogs and cats and small children and be respectful to elderly people and save for your retirement and wear clean clothes and make sure your car has insurance.


10. Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature.


The best way to be not a cancer on the earth is to get up at dawn and climb a mountain and do yoga on the mountain top as the sun rises over the slopes and ocean below you. Really---I just did that in Bali and it was very groovy, man. There was this bamboo pavilion that looked north all the way to Java and I felt so at one with nature and I was there with some young babes in their yoga pants who looked great doing the "downward dog" yoga pose and we were all there being one with nature and, for that one hour at sunrise, we were all very groovy as well.

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Leaving room for nature is very groovy, man.

Cheers!
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 18 May 2018, 20:52:51

There is something that is true about adoption of new scientific understanding, that also applies to political thought. Those that adhere to previous concepts must die off before the adoption of the new understanding.

No minds are ever changed. They just cease to exist and are supplanted by adherents of the new understanding in the following generations.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 19 May 2018, 05:46:07

Plant,

There is no doubt that these are lofty goals, probably outside our reach.

So what? I find it useful to have something aspirational. Helps keep me focused.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 19 May 2018, 06:35:39

Cid_Yama wrote:
No minds are ever changed. They just cease to exist and are supplanted by adherents of the new understanding in the following generations.


I fully believe this will be the case. As it always has been in history. Also related is the tendency of ideologies to run their course toward obsolescence.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 19 May 2018, 06:59:22

Ibon wrote:
Cid_Yama wrote:
No minds are ever changed. They just cease to exist and are supplanted by adherents of the new understanding in the following generations.


I fully believe this will be the case. As it always has been in history. Also related is the tendency of ideologies to run their course toward obsolescence.

From which I reach the conclusion that we either adapt in what will certsinly amount to extreme radical changes or face the prospect of being diminished as a species greatly and permanently
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