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Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 3, 21st century perspecti

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 10 Dec 2016, 13:32:39

Does anyone else notice we may be in the bargaining stage of grief. We seem to be getting closer to the acceptance stage. I notice because on Facebook more comments about doom and also just being awake to all that is going on. Plus the authorities both economic and political seem to be getting more desperate
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 10 Dec 2016, 16:30:43

Forget about the classic stages of Kubler Ross.

What happens after Bargaining is not Acceptance but a retrenchment toward Ignoring

When the actual reality is not solvable and represents too immense a process to deal with then the most logical and actually adaptive response is To Ignore.

Ignoring is like a tree that grows out of the side of the cliff, its accumulating biomass slowly brings it to the momentous event where its weight will make it fall. Up until then it blissfully continues to flower. I have mentioned this analogy in the past.

This is certainly where I am. I cannot generate any more juice around analysis, dissection or discussion, either intellectually or emotionally, around our species plight. When some meaningful consequences happen that actually put a dent into human overshoot then I might get interested again.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:43:45

pstarr wrote:
Ibon wrote:This is certainly where I am. I cannot generate any more juice around analysis, dissection or discussion, either intellectually or emotionally, around our species plight. When some meaningful consequences happen that actually put a dent into human overshoot then I might get interested again.

You sound depressed Ibon. Perhaps you are still bargaining? Things will not get 'fixed' in the world, but with preparation, patience, we can hope for our own lives to continue.

Screw the 'species' They will get along fine without us. And if some die, others will fill their place in the world. You believe you are in a safe place. Why should you care if all of Europe the Middle East and China implode? And billions die. If you and yours have done everything in your power to prepare than you should be excited to be part of this momentous time in history.


I guess I would be depressed if my inability to generate much interest anymore left me despondent. But this is not the case, I am experiencing a bit of an energy boost which I think is related to coming out on the other side of dealing with my fathers passing. Lot's of creative energy at the moment, the topics we discuss here just seem a bit dusty and tired and I come on here looking for some engagement, some new angle, some stones that we have still left unturned. I aint finding much frankly.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:21:10

Ibon, I think we are on the verge of a very cogent downturn. I expect the War on Terrorism to further intensify perhaps in other areas. The economic/energy situation seems near to crossing some Rubicon. Climate change is the wildcard at least for me to gauge when more dramatic events could occur. I expect a few countries including the US to continue exploitation of other countries yet the whole interconnected global economic/finance seems quite fragile
and more vulnerable than at anytime I can ever remember. So we do live in interesting times but not in a good way.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 11 Dec 2016, 12:16:06

As always I think that financial collapse is the first stone to fall. But there is no telling when it will fall.n logically it's already like Wiley Coyote dancing on air. But since is all cartoon anyway maybe the animators can just keep painting the pretty picture.

At some point something will kick, fast or slow.

That is a known unknown.
It's the unknown unknowns that put the zip in the sauce. Like biting into an unseen pepper in you General Tsaos dish.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby careinke » Mon 12 Dec 2016, 06:35:39

I'm hoping for and encouraging a global economic collapse, as I believe it gives mankind its best chance of survival. :)

Get out of debt.
buy local
avoid banks
trade, gift, etc.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby careinke » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 00:45:59

Image
Sorry about the sizing

Through the review of hundreds of published studies, Washington State University researchers have found evidence that organic farming can produce sufficient yields, be profitable for farmers, protect and improve the environment, and be safer for farm workers.

http://www.realfarmacy.com/organic-agriculture-is-the-key-to-solving-world-hunger/

WSU is my Alma mater, it is primarily an agricultural university, also known by some as Moo U. :-D I would give their study a lot of credibility.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 02:51:38

Somehow the thoughts of those obsessed with agriculture, about agriculture and how the rest of us will need to practice agriculture, don't seem that important.

I mean, the reason so many fled to the cities is that in the age of mechanization, the internet, and cable TV, the farm and the rural life lost all appeal.

Now try to imagine Donald Trump's family growing vegetables. It's just not gonna happen, ever. Those of you who like such things are still going to have to each of you feed 3000 city dwellers, with or without petroleum fuelled machinery, or the outraged city dwellers will have cash bounties on your scalps.

The next step is that in a shortage of agricultural labor, and with a surplus of incarcerated felons, the obvious solution is forced penal labor for growing food. If your local aggie doesn' t offer a curriculum in penal "science", it is obviously deficient. You and each of your family members need to have a personal sidearm and know how to use it, and each farm will need a gallows to encourage productivity in the workforce.

There, that problem was not so insolvable, after all. You will have a production quota, and a labor force of sullen, non-white laborers. You will need a coiled leather whip, Indiana Jones style. You can encourage your minority prisoners to call you "Massa".

I was deliberately offensive in the above paragraphs, to make a point. Those who live in cities and suburbs and eat from packages will seek to continue the lifestyles they have, and the corporate farms are not going away. Penal labor will happen, and "life at hard labor" will acquire new meaning - after Peak Oil.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby careinke » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 04:20:55

Now who's the optimist? Thinking society and global world order will survive. :-D :-D

I would use it as a transition tool that will work. Eventually though, we still need to let the population decrease. Perhaps there is a way to do it without killing off 99% of the population.
......................

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1. Everything I "know" is a lie.
2. Even that I know that "Everything I know is a lie" is a lie.
3. Knowledge is real, but even knowledge, with no action, is nothing.

That's about as deep as I can go :-D
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 08:08:00

careinke wrote:
I've learned in 2016:

1. Everything I "know" is a lie.
2. Even that I know that "Everything I know is a lie" is a lie.
3. Knowledge is real, but even knowledge, with no action, is nothing.

That's about as deep as I can go :-D


Sally figured this out years ago




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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 08:30:27

Careinke, the difference in perspective between us is due to what I believe the "crash" will be like, versus most of you. Because I don't believe there ever will be an event called the oil crash. I believe that oil already peaked and that our civilization has been in decline for years.

Kunstler's Long Emergency is the "model" I favor, and we.are experiencing the effects now. There are still countries to invade for oil, people to be killed, and an automobile industry to be brought to their knees.

The Long Emergency has already begun. With relatively few exceptions, we already have acquired all the wealth and all the lifestyle we will ever have. There are no really good days or years to come, just lives of steadily increasing hardship and despair. Those who continue to have incomes will have themselves brought down by an increasingly desperate government and their taxes.

There is room for perhaps one more generation of those who believe in wealth and privelege. Then the gradual doom will become apparent, and the family farm will become stylish again. Then the cities die. Look to what happened in New Orleans as the waters rose after hurricane Katrina, to understand the fate of the cities. People hunkered down in place, then went to a higher floor, or the roof, and waited for the government to save them. The government will still exist, but there won't be any food for the cities. Until they eat each other.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 18 Dec 2016, 01:01:37

careinke wrote:I'm hoping for and encouraging a global economic collapse, as I believe it gives mankind its best chance of survival. :)

Get out of debt.
buy local
avoid banks
trade, gift, etc.


FWIW, scientists like Guy McPherson argue the same. One can only hope, though, that such a collapse will not lead to increased conflict.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 18 Dec 2016, 17:22:14

Had a loooong 14 hour drive with the Wife yesterday. This led to that and got me thinking......

How would humans train a group to act as "soldier ants".

First they would need to be deducated to the task, a warrior class. That means freeing up a bunch of young guys from work/employment.

Then show them that the culture glorifies those that kill "bad" guys. War movies.

Ideally those bad guys should look human, sort of, and be worthy of killing. Zombies.

Then train those guys in the execution, and warfare to carry out the killing. Shooter games.

Not saying it is some grand plan carried out by TPTB but that somehow our collective psyche is doing this.

Not wedded to this idea but I thought it might have some merit.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 18 Dec 2016, 21:49:44

Newfie wrote:
Not saying it is some grand plan carried out by TPTB but that somehow our collective psyche is doing this.



It is quite common for historians to look back at periods of war and disruption and openly ponder the question, " How did they allow this to happen, how did the population so willingly accept and participate in the carnage". It often seems unfathomable how a whole society can collectively get sucked into the beat of the war drums and willingly participate.

We are witnessing right now this movement once again in the collective psyche as you say...... The winds of change are moving into a darker place and the collective psyche wants to purge itself using the tools of hate, anger, nationalism, racism, ethnic conflicts, socio-economic divisions, war, tribalism, police state, military expansion, authoritarianism, demagogues.

TPTB will harness this but they are not creating it. Demagogues never rise in a vacuum but instead harness something seething in the collective and riding this as it feeds their demagoguery.

Ask yourself how much do you really want to participate in this as it grows into a major current. For myself at this moment in time the best strategy is to slip into a back eddy that floats you into some quiet corner and away from the raging white water of wrath.

Pay attention in the months and years ahead to see if this trend we speak of is truly growing or if it subsides again. I smell deeper currents in the collective desiring destruction and war. There are high levels of discontentment, isolation and unhappiness and a sense of entrapment with no real escape that is life affirming. It is times like these that the release comes from darkness.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 18 Dec 2016, 22:33:16

Ibon, you might not be able to escape the waves of horror coming in all of our general direction, even in you secluded jungle getaway. But best luck trying.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 19 Dec 2016, 07:23:28

First and foremost the stepping out of the current is more mental than where you physically place yourself.

If you choose to physically place yourself in a location with the primary objective to avoid the current then you are most likely still in relationship to it. It remains dominant in your thinking.
Then you really didn't achieve anything.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Cog » Mon 19 Dec 2016, 08:00:57

dohboi wrote:Ibon, you might not be able to escape the waves of horror coming in all of our general direction, even in you secluded jungle getaway. But best luck trying.


Like zombies or something? Cause I'm down for some zombie killing.
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Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 19 Dec 2016, 08:37:40

One point to consider about such a scenario is that armed groups may end up turning on those that they work for, especially if the credit that is paid to them becomes worthless.
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