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Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons why

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Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons why

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 20:14:53

Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons why

Suddenly, there is a new economist making waves – and he is not on the right. At the conference of the Institute of New Economic Thinking in Toronto last week, Thomas Piketty's book Capital in the Twenty-First Century got at least one mention at every session I attended. You have to go back to the 1970s and Milton Friedman for a single economist to have had such an impact.

Like Friedman, Piketty is a man for the times. For 1970s anxieties about inflation substitute today's concerns about the emergence of the plutocratic rich and their impact on economy and society. Piketty is in no doubt, as he indicates in an interview in today's Observer New Review, that the current level of rising wealth inequality, set to grow still further, now imperils the very future of capitalism. He has proved it.

It is a startling thesis and one extraordinarily unwelcome to those who think capitalism and inequality need each other. Capitalism requires inequality of wealth, runs this right-of-centre argument, to stimulate risk-taking and effort; governments trying to stem it with taxes on wealth, capital, inheritance and property kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Thus Messrs Cameron and Osborne faithfully champion lower inheritance taxes, refuse to reshape the council tax and boast about the business-friendly low capital gains and corporation tax regime.



As a result, the burden of paying for public goods such as education, health and housing is increasingly shouldered by average taxpayers, who don't have the wherewithal to sustain them. Wealth inequality thus becomes a recipe for slowing, innovation-averse, rentier economies, tougher working conditions and degraded public services. Meanwhile, the rich get ever richer and more detached from the societies of which they are part: not by merit or hard work, but simply because they are lucky enough to be in command of capital receiving higher returns than wages over time. Our collective sense of justice is outraged.

The lesson of the past is that societies try to protect themselves: they close their borders or have revolutions – or end up going to war. Piketty fears a repeat. His critics argue that with higher living standards resentment of the ultra-rich may no longer be as great – and his data is under intense scrutiny for mistakes. So far it has all held up.

Nor does it seem likely that human beings' inherent sense of justice has been suspended. Of course the reaction plays out differently in different eras: I suspect some of the energy behind Scottish nationalism is the desire to build a country where toxic wealth inequalities are less indulged than in England.

The solutions – a top income tax rate of up to 80%, effective inheritance tax, proper property taxes and, because the issue is global, a global wealth tax – are currently inconceivable.

But as Piketty says, the task of economists is to make them more conceivable. Capital certainly does that.


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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 20:27:08

Graeme wrote: Piketty is in no doubt, as he indicates in an interview in today's Observer New Review, that the current level of rising wealth inequality, set to grow still further, now imperils the very future of capitalism.


As someone who lives in a US state with perhaps the lowest level of wealth inequality in the entire US (Alaska), I 'd just like to point out that the places with the highest levels of wealth inequality are typically blue states, with the most atrocious levels of income inequality occurring precisely in the liberal strongholds of Detroit, Chicago, SF, NY, etc.

If folks really want to reduce wealth inequality, the way to do it is to create a vibrant, capitalist private sector that is generating high-wage jobs in the private sector as Alaska and SD have done.

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The Gini coefficent measures income inequality
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 20:34:20

It's a bitter pill to swallow. Of course, you would be for his remedies. .
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 22:44:43

Plantagenet wrote:As someone who lives in a US state with perhaps the lowest level of wealth inequality in the entire US (Alaska), I 'd just like to point out that the places with the highest levels of wealth inequality are typically blue states, with the most atrocious levels of income inequality occurring precisely in the liberal strongholds of Detroit, Chicago, SF, NY, etc.

If folks really want to reduce wealth inequality, the way to do it is to create a vibrant, capitalist private sector that is generating high-wage jobs in the private sector as Alaska and SD have done.
I guess the free oil money payments from the gubmint also helps to equalise.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 23:11:28

Keith_McClary wrote:I guess the free oil money payments from the gubmint also helps to equalise.


Yup. And the state having forty billion dollars in a sovereign wealth fund is a pretty good deal too---it means no state income or sales taxes.

Thats exactly why I'm recommending these policies --- letting capitalism work has worked out well for Alaska and Alaskans. :)
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 23:37:44

Norway is going to use it's sovereign wealth fund to invest in renewables in an effort to cut ghg emissions.

On Thursday, Norway’s Prime Minister Erna Solberg announced plans to invest more of the nation’s $840 billion sovereign wealth fund in renewable energy in an effort to cut greenhouse gas emissions as the country struggles to meet its 2020 climate goals.


Do you know where Alaska invests money for it's fund?
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 23:43:10

Plantagenet wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:I guess the free oil money payments from the gubmint also helps to equalise.


Yup. And the state having forty billion dollars in a sovereign wealth fund is a pretty good deal too---it means no state income or sales taxes.

Thats exactly why I'm recommending these policies --- letting capitalism work has worked out well for Alaska and Alaskans. :)
Alaska has over 5000 barrels of proven oil reserves for every man woman and child in Alaska. Michigan has 3. Somehow I don't see the same policies in Alaska working in Detroit.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 13 Apr 2014, 23:51:36

kublikhan wrote:Alaska has over 5000 barrels of proven oil reserves for every man woman and child in Alaska. Michigan has 3. Somehow I don't see the same policies in Alaska working in Detroit.


Have you heard of a process called "frakking"? If not, I suggest you google it.

You see, Michigan actually might benefit from the same policies as Alaska if you could convince your legislators to allow "frakking" and energy production in Michigan. Your shale is likely to produce more gas than oil, but NG prices are moving up fast after last winter.

Michigan also has significant wind power resources along the Great Lakes.

I suggest you stop bemoaning Michigan's lack of oil, and go out and lobby your state legislators to allow frakking and then start building some windmills and find some natural gas in Michigan. Unleash the capitalist beast within you --- Yeeeeeee HAH!

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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 01:07:03

Plantagenet wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:I guess the free oil money payments from the gubmint also helps to equalise.


Yup. And the state having forty billion dollars in a sovereign wealth fund is a pretty good deal too---it means no state income or sales taxes.

Thats exactly why I'm recommending these policies --- letting capitalism work has worked out well for Alaska and Alaskans. :)
In Canada there is a capitalist think tank that annually announces a "tax freedom day", representing the portion of the year where all our income goes to taxes. Alberta (with the lowest taxes) has the latest "tax freedom day" because the think tank considers the oil royalties paid to corporations to be "taxes".

I'm a socialist like you - I think the resources belong to the people and the revenues should go into a collectivist sovereign fund.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Simon_R » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 04:51:08

I'm a socialist like you - I think the resources belong to the people and the revenues should go into a collectivist sovereign fund.


With all this capital, what would a socialist do with it ?
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby GHung » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 09:35:42

Capitalism - "The Snake that swallows its own tail."
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 12:55:12

Keith_McClary wrote:I'm a socialist like you - I think the resources belong to the people and the revenues should go into a collectivist sovereign fund.


1. I'm not a socialist.

2. Resources on state land belong to the people of the state. Resources on private land belong to the private owner.

3. The Prudhoe Bay oilfield lies under Alaska state land and is owned by the people of the state of Alaska. The royalty oil and taxes collected from the oilcos operating at Prudhoe have nothing to do with socialism or collectivism---the oilcos are private businesses and their taxes are part of CAPITALISM---the Alaska sovereign wealth fund is CAPITALIST to the core----the dividends paid to the sovereign wealth stock fund owners (i.e. Alaskans) are a fundamental part of CAPITALISM

4. Like many self-proclaimed socialists, you apparently don't actually know what socialism is.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 14:42:14

Plantagenet wrote:Have you heard of a process called "frakking"? If not, I suggest you google it.

You see, Michigan actually might benefit from the same policies as Alaska if you could convince your legislators to allow "frakking" and energy production in Michigan. Your shale is likely to produce more gas than oil, but NG prices are moving up fast after last winter.

Michigan also has significant wind power resources along the Great Lakes.

I suggest you stop bemoaning Michigan's lack of oil, and go out and lobby your state legislators to allow frakking and then start building some windmills and find some natural gas in Michigan. Unleash the capitalist beast within you --- Yeeeeeee HAH!
Wind turbines do not produce the same kind of returns that oil does. Detroit is not going to be bailed out of it's hole by building a bunch of wind turbines.

As for natural gas prices, they are falling:

Natural gas futures are showing extreme "backwardization"
Natural gas April contracts are selling at a 40% discount to March
the majority of increases behind us
Natural Gas In Extreme Backwardization; Expect Prices To Fall

Apr 14, 2014
Forecasts for seasonably mild U.S. temperatures typical of this time of year sent natural gas futures falling on Monday, as demand for heating in the country's homes should wane. On the New York Mercantile Exchange, natural gas futures for delivery in May traded at $4.556 per million British thermal units during U.S. trading, down 1.40%. The May contract settled down 0.75% on Friday to end at $4.620. Updated weather-forecasting models called for seasonably mild temperatures to hover over much of the lower 48 contiguous U.S. states towards the end of April, which sent natural gas prices falling.
Natural gas drops on forecasts for mild U.S. weather

As for the capitalist beast, it is still smarting from the last time it got stung by shale gas. It is just not as profitable as oil:

Chesapeake Energy Corp. has taken the first steps to spin off its oilfield services unit. The second largest U.S. natural gas producer reported Monday it has filed paperwork with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for the possible separation. Chesapeake, focused on discovering and developing natural gas and oil assets onshore in the United States, reported last month it was mulling a sale or a spin-off of the unit, saying it is able to fully operate on its own.

The unit’s services include drilling, hydraulic fracturing (“fracking”), oil rentals, rig location, and fluid handling and disposal. The unit posted a net loss of $19.7 million in 2013. Over the last two years, hurt by low natural gas prices, CHK has shed some $11 billion in assets to pay off debt accumulated in a rush to acquire land or other assets.
Chesapeake Energy Corp. Will Spin Off Oilfield Services Business

It is not wise to promote further natural gas production at a time when prices are not high enough to bring in the big profits. Drilling natural gas wells just to flare off the gas is stupid:

The video highlights the complete "absurdity" of the current situation, and points out how natural gas is being "flared" off in the shale gas areas. BISMARCK, N.D. - About 30 percent of North Dakota's gas production is being burned off. So much gas is being flared off it can be seen from outer space.
Natural Gas In Extreme Backwardization
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 15:07:06

kublikhan wrote: Detroit is not going to be bailed out ….

As for natural gas prices, they are falling …. It is not wise to promote further natural gas production at a time when prices are not high enough to bring in the big profits


That whole mentality that Detroit is going to be "bailed out" is just wrong. You are darned tooting that Detroit shouldn't be counting on another bailout.

Instead of thinking about "bailouts" Detroit should be building NG cars to run on cheap NG. Sitting around waiting for another government bailout isn't good strategy for Detroit.

If the folks in detroit were good capitalists, they would be looking to the future and building NG cars that run on cheap NG to replace the fleet of current cars that are facing ever higher gasoline prices due to peak oil.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby HARM » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 15:15:44

"3. The Prudhoe Bay oilfield lies under Alaska state land and is owned by the people of the state of Alaska. The royalty oil and taxes collected from the oilcos operating at Prudhoe have nothing to do with socialism or collectivism---the oilcos are private businesses and their taxes are part of CAPITALISM---the Alaska sovereign wealth fund is CAPITALIST to the core----the dividends paid to the sovereign wealth stock fund owners (i.e. Alaskans) are a fundamental part of CAPITALISM."


Technically, what you just described here IS a form of socialism --collective ownership of natural resources and/or the means of production. As an American, I can certainly understand not wanting to be *identified* with "socialism" (the dreaded S-word), considering it's about as popular here as leprosy. Nonetheless, socialism by any other name is still socialism. And that's not at all a bad thing. In Europe, the word does not seem to have the same stigma, and there are still political parties with "socialist" in the name that regularly win seats in government. Perhaps it's high time to destigamatize the word on this side of the pond.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 15:48:43

HARM wrote:
"3. The Prudhoe Bay oilfield lies under Alaska state land and is owned by the people of the state of Alaska. The royalty oil and taxes collected from the oilcos operating at Prudhoe have nothing to do with socialism or collectivism---the oilcos are private businesses and their taxes are part of CAPITALISM---the Alaska sovereign wealth fund is CAPITALIST to the core----the dividends paid to the sovereign wealth stock fund owners (i.e. Alaskans) are a fundamental part of CAPITALISM."


Technically, what you just described here IS a form of socialism --collective ownership of natural resources and/or the means of production.


In actuality, there is no "collective ownership" in socialist countries. The socialist STATE owns the resources in socialist countries. All income from natural resources in socialist states goes to the state.

In contrast, in Alaska the citizens of Alaska own the resources, and the citizens receive shares of the financial return from that ownership in the form of a cash dividend.

Also, in Alaska the "means of production" are privately held. The facts are clear ---- Alaska is clearly capitalist, not socialist.

HARM wrote:As an American, I can certainly understand not wanting to be *identified* with "socialism" (the dreaded S-word), considering it's about as popular here as leprosy. Nonetheless, socialism by any other name is still socialism. And that's not at all a bad thing. In Europe, the word does not seem to have the same stigma, and there are still political parties with "socialist" in the name that regularly win seats in government. Perhaps it's high time to destigamatize the word on this side of the pond.


Your fear of being identified with "socialism" is silly. Socialism is just a name for an economic system predicated on state ownership of the means of production. The word may be out of favor here in the US, but its even more unpopular in those eastern European countries that actually tried socialism and then abandoned it after the fall of the USSR.

Please note that the meaning of the world "socialist" as used by "socialist" parties in western Europe has shifted, just as the word "liberal" has shifted to the point its meaning is almost lost. Western European socialist parties no longer call for nationalization of industries and state ownership of the "means of production." Socialist parties in western Europe today generally limit themselves to favoring more social welfare programs, much like the democratic party here in the US does. And social welfare programs are NOT socialism---.

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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby HARM » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 16:22:03

Plantagenet,

We can spend all day parsing words and dueling definitions, so I'll limit my response to a couple counterpoints:

1. You are conflating communism with democratic socialism. This, I might add, is a favorite tactic of the American far right, especially since the fall of Communism/Stalinism in the former USSR. The far right basically caricatures anything it considers faintly "leftist" or progressive as "socialist" in an attempt to shut down any political debate before it has even begun. They prefer to constrain everything into a false dichotomy of "us" ("real American" right-wing patriots) vs. them (Godless gun and Bible-confiscating gay-abortion-socialists). So, if you are in favor of unions, you're a communist. If you're concerned about growing povery/inequality, you're a communist. If you're concerned about the environment, you're a bleeding heart (and a Commie). If you "believe" in the actual age of the earth/universe, or the established-beyond-reasonable-doubt mechanism of evolution, you're a Commie. If you think women should be trusted with their own bodies, then clearly you're a communist, etc.

2. "you're fear being identified with "socialism". It's funny how the American far right has spent the last half century relentlessly trying to turn socialism into a dirty word and then mocks liberals for being afraid to use it. Despite the (very real) stigma of the word in this country, I am not afraid of the word or what it represents. On the contrary, it is your side that seems perpetually terrified of the word, to the extent you force an association between in and all sorts of other right-wing bogeymen, real or imagined: Islamic terrorism, gay marriage, unions, abortion, science, gun confiscation, loss of white privilege, multiculturalism, business regulation, progressive taxation, etc.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 16:31:20

pstarr wrote: I doubt the problems in Michigan are a consequence of folks being too lazy or unimaginative to fract. It could be the previous resource-extraction boom (in steel, not oil like Alaska) came to no good.


Michigan had three extraction booms, first they came for the Copper, then the Lumber, and finally the Iron Ore. All of those took place in the 1850-1950 era when people thought natural resources were unlimited. In the last 50 years the iron mines have almost all shut down because Pittsburgh does a lot more recycling these days and the lower demand for iron ore priced Michigan mines out of the market. Sustainable forrestry is still a business in Michigan today, but the copper is played out. For Ohio the big extraction industry has been coal, but most of that has moved out of the state because it was all shaft mining and states on the other side of the river allow mountaintop removal strip mining. Now the Utica shale is starting to produce a lot of wet gas, but it is almost all being done on private land, not state land. So far as I know niether state invests a dime in a wealth fund, that would require forward thinking.
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Re: Capitalism simply isn't working and here are the reasons

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 14 Apr 2014, 17:17:40

Subjectivist wrote:
Michigan had three extraction booms, first they came for the Copper, then the Lumber, and finally the Iron Ore.


A fourth extraction boom occurred when the auto companies were bailed out the government after the 2007-9 recession. GM and Chrysler extracted billions of dollars from the US taxpayer that will never be repaid in full.
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