[Subjectivist]

Michigan had three extraction booms, first they came for the Copper, then the Lumber, and finally the Iron Ore.

A fourth extraction boom occurred when the auto companies were bailed out the government after the 2007-9 recession. GM and Chrysler extracted billions of dollars from the US taxpayer that will never be repaid in full.

If you are going to count that then when did Alaska repay the US citizens for the Alaska Railroad from Seward to Fairbanks and the Alaska Highway through Canada to Fairbanks?

[Plantagenet]

Plantagenet,

We can spend all day parsing words and dueling definitions, so I'll limit my response to a couple counterpoints:

...You are conflating communism with democratic socialism.

No--you are confusing economics with politics. Socialism is an ECONOMIC system based on state control of the means of production. Communism is a totalitarian POLITICAL movement. The goal of communism to create a socialist ECONOMIC system. The goal of the POLITICAL movement known as democratic socialism is also to create a socialist ECONOMIC system, but to do it by democratic means.

if you are in favor of unions, you're a communist. If you're concerned about growing povery/inequality, you're a communist. If you're concerned about the environment, you're a bleeding heart (and a Commie). If you "believe" in the actual age of the earth/universe, or the established-beyond-reasonable-doubt mechanism of evolution, you're a Commie. If you think women should be trusted with their own bodies, then clearly you're a communist, etc.

Maybe you and your friends think like that, but I think you are way off the mark there.

your side ...

Again, you are the one posting all those half-baked ideas, not me.

[Plantagenet]

the auto companies were bailed out the government after the 2007-9 recession. GM and Chrysler extracted billions of dollars from the US taxpayer that will never be repaid in full.

If you are going to count that then when did Alaska repay the US citizens for the Alaska Railroad from Seward to Fairbanks and the Alaska Highway through Canada to Fairbanks?

An important function of the government is to build infrastructure.

That is an entirely different thing from bailing out mismanaged and bankrupt private corporations which is what happened with the auto bailout.

[slim_chiply]

Michigan has been fracked. Devon drilled and fracked several dry holes. I think Encana and Whitting may still be giving it a go. So far I don't think anything economical has been found. Perhaps if dry gas goes up again there might be increased activity.

[Lore]

The government has so far been making money on TARP.

OUTFLOWS: $609 billion This includes money that has actually been spent, invested, or loaned.

INFLOWS: $639 billion Money returned and paid to Treasury as interest, dividends, fees or to repurchase their stock warrants.

The Bailout Scorecard

Last update: Apr. 10, 2014

Altogether, accounting for both the TARP and the Fannie and Freddie bailout, $609B has gone out the door—invested, loaned, or paid out—while $384B has been returned.

The Treasury has been earning a return on most of the money invested or loaned. So far, it has earned $255B. When those revenues are taken into account, the government has realized a $30.2B profit as of Apr. 10, 2014.

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/

[dinopello]

The government has so far been making money on TARP.

The house always wins in the end.

[Serial_Worrier]

I recommend you go live in North Korea if you detest capitalism so much.

[dorlomin]

As a result, the burden of paying for public goods such as education, health and housing is increasingly shouldered by average taxpayers, who don't have the wherewithal to sustain them. Wealth inequality thus becomes a recipe for slowing, innovation-averse, rentier economies, tougher working conditions and degraded public services. Meanwhile, the rich get ever richer and more detached from the societies of which they are part: not by merit or hard work, but simply because they are lucky enough to be in command of capital receiving higher returns than wages over time. Our collective sense of justice is outraged.

This is actually quote a erudite view of what is currently happening. The new 'middle classes' of the developed world are not able to take up the consumption slack from the old middle classes, so we have over capacity in the global economy being made up for by massive state lending and QE.

Not a recipe for long term growth.

[americandream]

Two points:

1 Social economies are circumscribed by the material domain. Consequently, irrespective of what we think of the various "ism's", the issue of capitalism's status is in the finality, an issue of material constraints and evolution will ensure that we adapt or die out.

2 The transition is most likely to be communist if we default back to collective living (fascism will be tried along the way but being a form of militant mercantilism, will fail). Communism is the transitory period of revolution when the social economy undergoes transformation, it is a violent period of purging and will involve authoritarian government. These are facts that speak more for human cultural adaptation at crossroads in our history and should not be clouded by emotion.

[Plantagenet]

The claim that the government TARP auto bailout got all the money back is BS. Taxpayers lost about 12 billion dollars on the GM bailout, and lost more billions on the Chysler bailout.

The final count is in---GM ripped off taxpayers for 12 billion dollars

U.S. taxpayers no longer own any of automaker General Motors. The Treasury sold the last of its remaining 31.1 million GM shares today. It started with 500 million shares in 2010.

The taxpayer loss on the GM bailout is $10.5 billion. The Treasury department said it recovered $39 billion from selling its GM stake, and had put $49.5 billion of taxpayer money directly into the GM bailout.

The total bailout rises to $51 billion, including another $1.5 billion that Treasury put into programs to keep GM suppliers afloat

So the loss of 10.5 billion on GM and another 1.5 billion on suppliers comes to about 12 billion dollars GM sucked out of the taxpayers. Add in the billions lost at Chrysler, and the Michigan hustle adds up to a nice pile of coin the oligarchs squeezed out of the taxpayers, thanks to their sleezy friends in DC.

[Lore]

The auto bailout was part of TARP. TARP has made money. Makes little difference if one part of it was not a short term money maker.

The facts are it would have cost the US economy over 100 billion immediately had the US auto industry collapsed. Not to mention the untold loss of future tax revenue from corporations and individuals. Then you have to also consider the on going trickle down economic impact of the loss of incomes by individuals to the revenue of other businesses.

In the end TARP was a pretty good deal for everybody.

[SteveO]

Thats exactly why I'm recommending these policies --- letting capitalism work has worked out well for Alaska and Alaskans.

I guess all us other 49 states had better start tapping all those giant conventional oil fields we have under our "north slopes".

[Timo]

The auto bailout was part of TARP. TARP has made money. Makes little difference if one part of it was not a short term money maker.

The facts are it would have cost the US economy over 100 billion immediately had the US auto industry collapsed. Not to mention the untold loss of future tax revenue from corporations and individuals. Then you have to also consider the on going trickle down economic impact of the loss of incomes by individuals to the revenue of other businesses.

In the end TARP was a pretty good deal for everybody.

Interesting that all hard-core conservatives claim that government should function like a business, and when they actually do something that makes money, OMG! That's heresy! How dare government actually try to make any money on our investments! Government should just stay the hell away from the private sector and let all the mega-corporations fail and bring down the American economy with them. That's CAPITALISM! The government is not allowed to participate!

[Plantagenet]

Interesting that all hard-core conservatives claim that government should function like a business, and when they actually do something that makes money, OMG!

Interesting that all hard-core liberals feel compelled to lie about TARP and the auto bailouts. God knows why liberals want average people to give billions of dollars to the auto corporations, buts thats apparently the liberal line now.

The facts are clear---the government didn't make money---the government lost 20 billion dollars. Rather than repaying the TARP bailout money GM issued stock to the government which the Obama administration sold at a huge loss. More losses occurred at Chrysler and from bailouts of auto supply companies. The total loss is about 20 BILLION dollars.

A more competent administration would've required total REPAYMENT of the TARP bailout money, but the Obama administration is so incompetent they couldn't even make the oligarchs at GM and Chrysler pay back all the TARP money.

[Lore]

Plant, where is your link for the above?

Clearly you know as much about business as you do politics...

It's not unusual to do a cost benefit analysis and take charges against a restructuring cost to meet your long term profitability.

Despite the $11 billion loss on the GM bailout, the Treasury Department was quick to point out that it has recovered a total of $432.7 billion on all investments under the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) – including the sale of its shares in AIG – compared to $421.8 billion disbursed. Treasury said it will continue to wind down the remaining investments”in a manner that balances maximizing the taxpayer’s return on investments with the speed of our exit.”

A study released Monday by the Center for Automotive Research concluded that the government bailout of GM spared 1.2 million jobs in 2009 and preserved $39.4 billion in personal and social insurance tax collections in 2009 and 2010. “Any complete cost-benefit assessment of the federal assistance to GM in its restructuring must consider the total net returns to the public investment…” researchers Sean McAlinden and Debra Maranger Menk wrote in “The Effect on the U.S. Economy of the Successful Restructuring of General Motors.”

“If the U.S. government had refused to assist (GM and Chrysler)… in a financial crisis of unprecedented proportions, then the whole U.S. economy was operating without a safety net, with the exception, of course, of the banking system,” McAlinden and Maranger Menk conclude. The center independently funded the new study as a follow up to a November 2008 analysis.

“The bottom line is that a failed GM would have left a lot of collateral damage,” said Karl Brauer, senior analyst at Kelley Blue Book. “Instead, GM is profitable, it’s making the best products in its 100-plus-year history, and it’s growing sales in the U.S. and globally. In looking at the recent history of government intervention, this one rates pretty well.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller ... -any-more/

[Timo]

Interesting that all hard-core conservatives claim that government should function like a business, and when they actually do something that makes money, OMG!

Interesting that all hard-core liberals feel compelled to lie about TARP and the auto bailouts. God knows why liberals want average people to give billions of dollars to the auto corporations, buts thats apparently the liberal line now.

The facts are clear---the government didn't make money---the government lost 20 billion dollars. Rather than repaying the TARP bailout money GM issued stock to the government which the Obama administration sold at a huge loss. More losses occurred at Chrysler and from bailouts of auto supply companies. The total loss is about 20 BILLION dollars.

A more competent administration would've required total REPAYMENT of the TARP bailout money, but the Obama administration is so incompetent they couldn't even make the oligarchs at GM and Chrysler pay back all the TARP money.

Interesting that you, of all people felt wounded by that comment, compelling you to respond with more of the same o'l, same ol'. Second verse, same as the first. Blah, bhlah, blah. Interesting.

[Plantagenet]

the $11 billion loss on the GM bailout

Don't you read your own posts?

TARP lost 11 billion on the GM bailout. They lost more billions on the Chrysler bailout and bailing out the auto suppliers.

TARP lost money on the auto bailout bailing out the wealthy oligarchs who run the car companies. I think thats a farce. You support bailing out oligarchs.

Why not admit it?

[Lore]

the $11 billion loss on the GM bailout

Don't you read your own posts?

TARP lost 11 billion on the GM bailout. They lost more billions on the Chrysler bailout and bailing out the auto suppliers.

TARP lost money on the auto bailout bailing out the wealthy oligarchs who run the car companies. I think thats a farce. You support bailing out oligarchs.

Why not admit it?

The Treasury has been earning a return on most of the money invested or loaned. So far, it has earned $255B. When those revenues are taken into account, the government has realized a $30.2B profit as of Apr. 10, 2014.

Looks like the TARP package was a winner to me! ...

Not to mention, as to my link, we retained what would have amounted to lost revenue exceeding any write off.

Let's face it, TARP was a totally successful government program that stepped in to prop up a failing capitalist system.

The Obama administration wins a big one! You on the other hand, and as usual, lose more credibility.

[Plantagenet]

TARP was a totally successful government program that stepped in to prop up a failing capitalist system.

The TARP is a classic example of crony capitalism, where the government diverts public money to favored cronies. The billions of taxpayers dollars lost to the oligarchs in Detroit enriched the oligarchs at the expense of average people.

It would've been easy for the Obama administration to require GM and other companies in Detroit to repay the government bailout in full. The auto companies are making billions in profits now. But instead, the Obama administration choose to "gift" their cronies with billions in taxpayer dollars.

[Lore]

Must be a lot of everyday common man oligarchs in our system?

Auto bailout saved 1.5 million U.S. jobs -study

Dec 9 (Reuters) - The federal bailout of General Motors Co, Chrysler and parts suppliers in 2009 saved 1.5 million U.S. jobs and preserved $105.3 billion in personal and social insurance tax collections, according to a study released on Monday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... XU20131209

Face it, you've been knocked out. You're just staggering around here after the smelling salts woke you up.