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CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby farmlad » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 10:39:51

Jupidu Gabe Brown has done a lot to promote 'Holistic Management' taught by Allan Savory and is now being implemented on 6 million + hectares around the globe.

What most people have no idea about is the difference between rainfall and effective rainfall. For rain to be effective it needs to soak into the ground otherwise it causes erosion and flooding. 20 years ago Gabe's soil was tested by the Burleigh County soil coservation district. The infiltration rate on his farm was 1/2 inch per hour, Today his infiltration rate is at 8+ inches per hour. thanks to how he manages the vegetation on his farm to enhance the biology in the soil. If all the farmed and ranched soil in the USA would be managed to increase it's infiltration rate we would never see a flooding worth mention in the news, and we would have a lot less drought since the infiltration rate and the water holding capacity are increased by the same principles, namely managing the vegetation to always cover the soil and to feed the soil biology with root exudates so that the biology can produce the soil aggregates with the glomalin etc that you mentioned.

Allan Savory has many videos on youtube here is a condensed talk for a starter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI&t=2s

And an ATTRA study on Gabe Brown's Farm file:///C:/Users/Dwight/Downloads/brown_ranch_casestudy.pdf
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 11:00:58

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:IIRC there are areas in the Central Valley where ground water extraction has lowered the ground level up to 60'. Moreover the underlying sand has now compacted, due to loss of the fossil water and has largely lost the ability to retain water.

So it's like you drained the barrel and then put a hole in it. It's still there but can't be refilled.

I have to wonder how much surface water (if and when it was available) you could pump(or just pour) back down the bore holes and store in those aquifers to reduce your further depletion of the fossil water during the next dry cycle. I'd think you would pour it in until it wouldn't absorb anymore just to do as best as you can.


That was my point. It will NOT reabsorb the water. Once the water has been extracted the sand compacts and looses MOST of its ability to absorb water.

Think of it this way. If the land subsided 10 feet it will not rebound. You have lost the capacity to store 10 feet of water. It's as much as 60 feet.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 11:14:29

This theory that water extraction (from pumping or evaporation) causes the land to shrink needs support. I just don't see water supporting rock.

Rock, dirt and soil are not the same. They all contain rock, but only soil has rock and organic matter. It is the organic matter that compresses, dries out, and for a short time can hold up dirt (ground rock). But this capacity only lasts a very short time. All soil reverts to dirt and compresses naturally. Perhaps the subsistance is a consequence of other activities?
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 11:17:01

pstarr wrote:
ritter wrote:I'll add, we need years of average or above average to help our groundwater situation. Full reservoirs are great unless you've got a well.

But the wells in California are fine, incidents of dry wells during the drought are almost non-existent. Groundwater data has not been collected since 2010, before the drought.

California is awash in water. You drought fanboys/girls are going to have to be very very patient, and wait until the next one. It's not due for 5-10 years. I suggest you practice Centering.
Image


It's not PRESENTING data after 2011. Doesn't mean they haven't collected it.

The data you linked requires a LOT of review to make an informed conclusion. Your conclusion flies in the face of everything I have read elsewhere. So I don't take the link as making your point. It points to data, but no analysis.

Also it comes from the California DROUGHT monitoring website. So, come on, really?

Land subsidence due to water extraction is a well understood event. It occurs in California is in the extreme.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 11:20:27

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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 11:30:48

Newfie, you linked to the wrong post. Did you read what I said? A quick glance at both my post and the USDA report supports my contention.
Land subsidence invariably occurs
when soils rich in organic carbon are
drained for agriculture or other purposes.

The most important cause of this subsidence
is microbial decomposition, which,
under drained conditions, readily converts
organic carbon to carbon-dioxide gas and
water. Compaction, desiccation, erosion by
wind and water, and prescribed or accidental
burning can also be signicant factors. Land subsidence invariably occurs
when soils rich in organic carbon are
drained for agriculture or other purposes.
The most important cause of this subsidence
is microbial decomposition, which,
under drained conditions, readily converts
organic carbon to carbon-dioxide gas and
water. Compaction, desiccation, erosion by
wind and water, and prescribed or accidental
burning can also be signicant factors.


While I appreciate that clay does swell with water, and once dried might perhaps be unable to swell again . . . for a while . . . I remain unconvinced. It seems that even dry blocks of clay will swell over time. My wife is a tile maker. I have worked with a lot of clay. (made and fired over 1,200 tiles) and yes, clay does re-swell over time.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 12:35:55

It seems we are talking past one another. Don't know how.

Here is the Pirates paragraph of the first link.

Land subsidence occurs when large amounts of groundwater have been withdrawn from certain types of rocks, such as fine-grained sediments. The rock compacts because the water is partly responsible for holding the ground up. When the water is withdrawn, the rocks falls in on itself. You may not notice land subsidence too much because it can occur over large areas rather than in a small spot, like a sinkhole. That doesn't mean that subsidence is not a big event -- states like California, Texas, and Florida have suffered damage to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars over the years.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 15:18:35

Newfie I went to your link, the USGS Land Subsidence study (Land Subsidence ) and followed a link there to this other USGS article: Land Subsidence. Both articles discuss the role of clay, limestone, and organic matter. Other than one brief mention of sediment (only in the first article) all other explanations make sense. Nowhere is it explained how water can hold up rock. It is not intuitive. It makes no sense.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 15:49:56

pstarr wrote:Newfie I went to your link, the USGS Land Subsidence study (Land Subsidence ) and followed a link there to this other USGS article: Land Subsidence. Both articles discuss the role of clay, limestone, and organic matter. Other than one brief mention of sediment (only in the first article) all other explanations make sense. Nowhere is it explained how water can hold up rock. It is not intuitive. It makes no sense.

Pstarr you need to consider the pressure of the water in the deep sandstone formations. This pressure comes just from the height of the water above it. If a sandstone aquifer was 500 feet deep and the top of the water table was 100 feet below the surface the water in the bottom layer of the formation would be at a static pressure of 173 psi. If they pump that aquifer down another 100 feet the pressure will drop to 130 psi and so on.
These numbers come from the weight of water which is 62.4 pounds per cubic foot and there are 144 square inches on the bottom of a cubic foot. .
62.4/144=.43333lbs/in^2/ foot of depth of water.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 16:06:46

vt, you also need to consider the pressure of the water the rock in the deep sandstone formations. It was and will remain always be greater than adjacent water. That means any pores once filled with water would have finally and ultimately filled with silt-rock, sand-rock, sediment-rock already, recently but more likely eons ago.

That heavier rock is in place now and in the past . . . already forced the water either deeper, higher, or into adjacent places. There are no pores to which additional sand can migrate. It already migrated. Finally only buried organic matter (and to a lesser extent clay) can change properties over time. So even if the clay dried out recently, it will re-expand when the water returns and the land will rise again. As soon as it gets wet. Furthermore the occurance of deep organic matter is unlikely. It would have rotted eons ago and also turned to its constituent elements--phosphorus, potassium, and carbon all solid materials that can't compress further.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 16:58:31

pstarr wrote:vt, you also need to consider the pressure of the water the rock in the deep sandstone formations. It was and will remain always be greater than adjacent water. That means any pores once filled with water would have finally and ultimately filled with silt-rock, sand-rock, sediment-rock already, recently but more likely eons ago.

That heavier rock is in place now and in the past . . . already forced the water either deeper, higher, or into adjacent places. There are no pores to which additional sand can migrate. It already migrated. Finally only buried organic matter (and to a lesser extent clay) can change properties over time. So even if the clay dried out recently, it will re-expand when the water returns and the land will rise again. As soon as it gets wet. Furthermore the occurance of deep organic matter is unlikely. It would have rotted eons ago and also turned to its constituent elements--phosphorus, potassium, and carbon all solid materials that can't compress further.

It is not that simple. Some sandstones weigh as little as 100 pounds per cubic foot and the sand they were formed from has a minimum grain size of a tenth of a millimeter. if the pores in it's structure are say 30 hundredths of a milometer 0.030mm then if the water in those pores is removed the sand grains will be too small to take it's place. If there are finer silt rock material with a grain size smaller then .075mm the pore structure will collapse and reintroduction of water will be a slow if not impossible process.
The weight of the rock is distributed buy the structure of the formation and is not distributed uniformly in all directions as the hydro-static water pressure is. In effect the weight of water can push up where the weight of the stone can only push down. Think of the rock as a series of tiny arches mixed in with laid up stretcher stones of equally small size.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 17:00:13

ROCKMAN.......HELP!

Pstarr,
I think you are missing something fundamental.

Archemedies Principal.

If you drop a 10 pound rock into a bucket the water level will rise. (Imagine a BIG bucket, half filled. ). The first rock displaces its volume of water. If you put a scale under it, under the water, it would weigh less than 10 pounds, say 7. Put in another 10 pound rock. Same issue. Now fill the bucket with rocks until you can stand on them with dry feet.

Now pump out the water. The bottom rock would now feel like 10 pounds, no water is displaced. But all those rocks on top would now feel like 10 pounds each also, 30% greater weight from the previously sunken, but now dry rocks.

Because the water is not there, and the rocks feel heavier, little corners will chip off and the rocks will settle. Subsidence.

But because the rocks are now compacted there will be less room for the water. The volume of the interstitial space will have decreased. Once so compressed the rocks will stay compressed leaving less room for water.

I sure hope this helps. Hope I said it right.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 17:06:56

Folks need to revisit history (dobhoi remember that? It goes back beyond the last news cycle). History tells us that the Ridiculously Resilient Ridge was apparently the proximate cause of the California drought.
The "Ridiculously Resilient Ridge," sometimes shortened to "Triple R" or "RRR," is the nickname given to a persistent region of atmospheric high pressure that occurred over the far northeastern Pacific Ocean.[1] The "Ridiculously Resilient Ridge" nickname was coined in December 2013 by Daniel Swain on the California Weather Blog.[2]

So as this is a historically wet rain year already. The RRR is nowhere in sight, the El Nina that brought RRR is also nowhere in sight, at least will not form during this rain year. Conclusion: the rains will most likely continue as as they always have. Methinks the AGW Fanboys and Fangirls are about ready for a spanking. :razz:

So who wants to bet? I say the California drought is over sometime before the end of this rainy season, which ends next October, 2017. There must be a facility to park or money? Any takers?

$100 says the drought is over by next May 1 . . . everywhere.
$50 says the drought over by Christmas . . . everywhere.
and $1000 says everywhere at the end of the rainy season, except the Central Coast/Tulare region.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 17:12:28

Can't find the supporting paper. This will have to do. Guts in last 2 sentences.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquifer

In unconsolidated aquifers, groundwater is produced from pore spaces between particles of gravel, sand, and silt. If the aquifer is confined by low-permeability layers, the reduced water pressure in the sand and gravel causes slow drainage of water from the adjoining confining layers. If these confining layers are composed of compressible silt or clay, the loss of water to the aquifer reduces the water pressure in the confining layer, causing it to compress from the weight of overlying geologic materials. In severe cases, this compression can be observed on the ground surface as subsidence. Unfortunately, much of the subsidence from groundwater extraction is permanent (elastic rebound is small). Thus, the subsidence is not only permanent, but the compressed aquifer has a permanently reduced capacity to hold water.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 17:19:17

Newfie wrote:ROCKMAN.......HELP!

Pstarr,
I think you are missing something fundamental.

Archemedies Principal.

If you drop a 10 pound rock into a bucket the water level will rise. (Imagine a BIG bucket, half filled. ). The first rock displaces its volume of water. If you put a scale under it, under the water, it would weigh less than 10 pounds, say 7. Put in another 10 pound rock. Same issue. Now fill the bucket with rocks until you can stand on them with dry feet.
Rocks are not buoyant in water. The rock will always weight 10 pounds because it contains no pores and no lighter material, no air. Buoyancy depends on the the relative density of the three materials, the liquid, the immersed solid, and the gas above the liquid.

Newfie, I think part of you misunderstanding is also about the nature of aquifers. Groundwater sinks until it hits solid rock and sits there, or flows laterally. It doesn't typically get trapped for any length of time in broken rock on its way down.

The Mad River from which we get our water apparently drys up during the summer, there is occasionally only a dry bed where there used to be a flowing river. Yet the city continues to pump water from the river bed. That is because the river is underground to us, but sitting on bedrock and still flowing. It's an underground river.

EDIT: your last post refers specifically to clay, which is what I said. I already countered that contention, clay's compression is ionic and clay does re-hydrate.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 18:18:57

Try this. If you are still up for it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_principle

"Rocks are not buoyant in water. "
Yes they are, just not sufficiently buoyant to float.

"The rock will always weight 10 pounds because it contains no pores and no lighter material, no air."

It's MASS is 10 pounds and stays constant. It's WEIGHT changes.

But your getting closer. The rock per se does not have air, but the area around it,between rocks does. Back to that big bucket of rocks. Fill it with rocks. Say 100 - 10 pound rocks. It weighs 1000 pounds. Add water to the top of the rocks. Now the bucket weighs more than 1000 pounds because you filled the spaces with water.

I'm sorry. Wish I could explain better.

What we need is blackboard and a six pack.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 18:33:43

I guess I don't get the point. Rock fragments will always be heavier then water. The water will always be heavier than remaining air in the pores of the rock (which is ultimately always pressured out and up). So the water and the rock fragments will always settle until they hit the bottom, the earth's crust. At which point compression affects neither any differently. (though I imagine water could be compressed under a non-permeable trap, like an anticline.)
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 20:57:28

Back to the lab Pstarr. Take a rock that is exactly one cubic foot in size that weighs124.8 pounds .That would be a specific gravity of 2.0 meaning it weighs twice as much as the same volume of water. Now hang your rock from a wire off your scale with the rock hanging in a tub of water. The scale will read 62.4 pounds because the displaced water weighs that much and is buoying up the rock by that amount. Pull the rock up out of the water and you regain the other half of the weight in proportion to how much of the rock has emerged.
You can work the problem backwards and weigh any rock in air and then water and determine the exact volume of the rock and it's specif gravity.
Say you had a five pound rock in air and in water it weighed 3.5 lbs.
It's volume would be 1.5/62.4=0.024 ft^3 and it's specific gravity would be 5.0/1.5=3.33 meaning a cubic foot of that rock would weigh 208 lbs. in the air. A basket of rocks hanging from a wire is how they actually do it at the State lab where I used to work.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 21:03:04

The specific gravity of neither changes and that is all that counts for this discussion. The water will never compress the rock or the water. The relative weight and density of each, of the water PLUS the rock does not change.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 21:15:48

pstarr wrote:The specific gravity of neither changes and that is all that counts for this discussion. The water will never compress the rock or the water. The relative weight and density of each, of the water PLUS the rock does not change.

Compress the rock no but displace the rock yes. Apparently you have never seen 150 psi water coming out of a broken pipe. :)
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