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CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Pops » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 21:33:52

If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 21:58:41

vtsnowedin wrote:
pstarr wrote:The specific gravity of neither changes and that is all that counts for this discussion. The water will never compress the rock or the water. The relative weight and density of each, of the water PLUS the rock does not change.

Compress the rock no but displace the rock yes. Apparently you have never seen 150 psi water coming out of a broken pipe. :)

So neither the rock nor the water is compressed before the drought. How can either be uncompressed after?
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 06:26:02

pstarr wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
pstarr wrote:The specific gravity of neither changes and that is all that counts for this discussion. The water will never compress the rock or the water. The relative weight and density of each, of the water PLUS the rock does not change.

Compress the rock no but displace the rock yes. Apparently you have never seen 150 psi water coming out of a broken pipe. :)

So neither the rock nor the water is compressed before the drought. How can either be uncompressed after?

It is not the water or the sand particles that change size it is the voids between the sand grains. Think of a piece of honey comb. Remove the honey and roll it flat with a rolling pin. Now try to put the honey back into it. 8)
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 09:33:10

The valley is a big rock bathtub
the old sand and gravel was deposited underwater
pump the water, the grains of sand, being less buoyant in air, compress

prove this to yourself by attempting to float on air

But subsidence was noted in the valley as far back as the 30's and was rampant in the 50s-60s before the big water projects replaced deep well irrigation

droughts are typical, the problem is the pumping
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 09:43:31

Many good points though.

And yes, droughts are typical in the area.

But this drought is not typical, being the deepest drought in some 1000 years (see links up thread).
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby ritter » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 14:06:32

Welcome back, Pops.

Pstarr--ground subsidence associated with groundwater pumping is about as well proven and understood as any other science-based theory. You tugging chains here or what?
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 14:31:19

https://www.google.com/search?q=graph+c ... JDwlIyM%3A

Long-term CA drought graph. Already in 2014, it was the deepest drought in at least 100 years. There is a longer-term one that shows it is the deepest in 1000 years, too. I have posted it here in the past. If others come across it first, please do post.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 14:52:06

Yeah, all that horror!

Kind of like the Fukushima reactor incident. Expensive, sad for some but in the greater scheme of things a mere footnote in a much larger story. Called Peak Oil.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 19 Nov 2016, 17:55:27

Update: it will not STOP RAINING! GRRRH! It seems all I can do these days is post GW-denial posts. Hard to get outside on the garden and orchard.

Someone dropped off a small pile of three very elusive matsutake mushrooms by my drive.
Image
Now in mid November. I can not (for the life of me. And the life of all those fragile woodland creatures threatened by GW ) figure out who granted me this largesse? But regardless, this California drought is just murder on all the green and growing stuff. It's like nature had no bounds, just wants to like ignore GW. Bastard nature is bad for publicity. GRRRRH :-x :lol: :twisted:

Oh jeez! I can't hear myself type. The rain is deafening. :cry:
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 19 Nov 2016, 20:19:50

Yeah, and a snowball in the hand of a denialist senator means about as much about the state of the climate as your bloviations.

Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html

102 million dead California trees 'unprecedented in our modern history,' officials say
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 11:10:32

This is an excellent argument for cutting California into different states for the different climate zones. The north is much more like Oregon than Los Angeles and policies good for the desert south are not often good policy for the temperate north.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 11:30:02

Interesting, sub.

The distribution of native tribes was more diverse in what is now CA than anywhere else I know of. Pete can speak more authoritatively on this, but I always took this as a reflection of the many micro-climates there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenou ... California
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 11:37:53

Now for the perspective: tree density at 6' by 5' is 1,452 trees per acre. So one square mile are (640ac/sq. mi) contains almost exactly 1 million trees. Hint: an average California forest fire kills 108 million trees around here every summer. No big deal.

Once again, it's pretty clear that you GW fanguys/gals need a few courses in ECOLOGY, the study of the actual planet earth. It seems that scattering theory, wave propagation models, cloud physics, statistical mechanics and spatial statistics are not up to model complex system, THE PLANET EARTH. Doh, go outside and smell the air it might clear the cobwebs in your head.

Sub, we have been trying for a century to cleave California from the rest of the United States. But we are an inclusive people, don't want the rest to starve or lose our valuable gift of modern technology

doh, there were a half-dozen tribes here in the Six Rivers regions. What remains are various legal tribes, federations, and communities
Hoopa Valley Tribe, Yurok Tribe, Karuk Tribe, Wiyot Tribe, Blue Lake Rancheria, Elk Valley Rancheria, Big Lagoon Rancheria, Bear River Band of Rhonerville Rancheria, Resighini Rancheria, Smith River Rancheria, Trinidad Rancheria, and the Round Valley Indian Tribes; A Sovereign Nation of Confederated Tribes. The Six Rivers also works with four Indian communities: Tsnungwe Council, Lassic Band of Wylacki-Wintoon Family Group, Inc., Eel River Nation of Sovereign Wailaki and Tolowa Nation. The tribal liaison for the Six Rivers is the Tribal Relations Program Manager.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 15:30:03

I'll ignore your denialist blather and thank you for the informative list.

Do you know about the Yurok and Wiyot? They are Algonquian (or more specifically Algic) languages, all the rest of which are on the East Coast or Midwest. I guess they took a California vacation one year and decided to stay!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiyot_language
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 15:50:13

The Rush fires by Mt. Lassen burned 315,577 acres in August 2012. 458 MILLION TREES MET THEIR UNTIMELY DEATHS :? . I weep for them, I weep for the chickadees, the foxes, and all the baby animals that succumbed to a torturous agonizing death. Their feathers burned off their darling bodies, the wails of wildlife will float through my dreams forever. Sad. Very Sad. We should build a wall around those damn forest fires. :x :lol: 8)

But really, what this has to do with the CA weather is beyond me? It will not stop raining, galdurnit!. I posted a bet that the drought would end BY 2017. Anyone here willing to take me up on it? Still waiting.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 16:48:52

Much of this early copious rains is into mid to southern Calif, south of San Fran. It used to be back-loaded, the storms only moved south, down toward Los Angeles later in the winter. Perhaps this new regime is a real consequence of global climate change?
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 16:58:37

pstarr wrote:Sub, we have been trying for a century to cleave California from the rest of the United States. But we are an inclusive people, don't want the rest to starve or lose our valuable gift of modern technology.


First off I said split California into two or three states, not dump it in the Pacific as its own imaginary empire.

Secondly mssing out of cheap almonds and avacado would hardly be a crisis beyond survival for normal people in mid America who quite easily feed ourselves.
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 18:22:49

That is not all Sub
California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on ...

All told, the state’s farms earned almost $45 billion in 2012, the last year for which statistics are available – that’s more than 11% of the nation’s total. The biggest winners include milk, which earned $6.9 billion; grapes ($4.5 billion); almonds ($4.3 billion); strawberries ($1.9 billion); lettuce ($1.5 billion); walnuts ($1.3 billion); and tomatoes ($1.2 billion).

You'd better give us the respect we deserve or you won't get dinner :x
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 19:22:02

pstarr wrote:Much of this early copious rains is into mid to southern Calif, south of San Fran. It used to be back-loaded, the storms only moved south, down toward Los Angeles later in the winter. Perhaps this new regime is a real consequence of global climate change?

Los Angeles has already received an inch of rain this afternoon. Crazy in mid November.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

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― Maya Angelou
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Re: CA Drought Emergency Declared Pt 5

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 20 Nov 2016, 19:55:52

pstarr wrote:That is not all Sub
California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on ...

All told, the state’s farms earned almost $45 billion in 2012, the last year for which statistics are available – that’s more than 11% of the nation’s total. The biggest winners include milk, which earned $6.9 billion; grapes ($4.5 billion); almonds ($4.3 billion); strawberries ($1.9 billion); lettuce ($1.5 billion); walnuts ($1.3 billion); and tomatoes ($1.2 billion).

You'd better give us the respect we deserve or you won't get dinner :x


Whooptie do, California has 15 percent of the national population and earned 11 percent of farm income, most of it from luxury foods, not staples.

My corn chips and sour cream come from local sources, not arrogant Californians wnho are legends in their own minds, but nowhere else.
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