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PeakOil is You

But what about peak oil?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Jul 2018, 17:03:57

asg70 wrote:If doom is THAT far off, it's probably not worth investing a lot of mental cycles towards it and just get on with life.


There is a lot to that. And I would argue it’s true for even shorter periods. If you can not DO anything about it why worry about it? That’s my logical self speaking, my emotional self wants to rip its throat out.

The other issue is this site has morphed to discuss various forms of doom. I feel financial doom is the most likely one to hit first. Just gut.

But it’s well to live your life so you can sustain a certain hit and yet get pleasure out of life. Be not a wage or a doom slave. I think I’ve, belatedly, gotten there, I hope.
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 08:08:45

As usual Pstarr pulls 'facts' out of the ether that are clearly contrary to reality. China weathered much higher than $85/bbl oil for several years at high rates of growth, and today they remain the driving force behind growing demand.
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby marmico » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 12:49:37

It takes JoeSixPack 1.25 hours of work to buy 10 gallons of gasoline per week which should move his ride 12000 miles per year.

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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 14:15:31

It was $100/gallon oil that ruined the economy in the US, the Greatest Recession Ever. Each recession (including the Greatest One) was preceded by high oil prices. Not inflation. No other commodity inflation has ever been the cause of a recession. Only oil.

Pstarr, if they don't understand it by now, they never will. Understand the pivotal role oil plays in the general Economy and thus the repurcussions of its price rising considerably :cry:
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 20:15:48

Interesting with oil steadily rising
Saudi Arabia Tells Trump No More Oil


https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenrwald ... 159cd06dfc
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 21:21:34

pstarr wrote:. We know that Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Ireland were hit the hardest by the Greatest Recession.
We also know it had nothing to do with oil.

WHAT IS THE EUROPEAN DEBT CRISIS?

In its most basic form, it’s just this: Some countries in Europe have way too much debt, and now they risk not being able to pay it all back. Simple!

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?
Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain — gathered under the unfortunate acronym PIIGS — are some of the most highly leveraged eurozone countries, and most people think that if a disaster happens, it will start with one of them. Italy’s debt is 121 percent the size of its economy. For Ireland, that figure is 109 percent. In Greece, it’s 165 percent.

The PIIGS took different paths to this scenario. Ireland, for example, underwent a massive real estate bubble, and its banks sustained giant losses. The Irish government wound up rescuing its banks, and now the country is burdened under a huge debt load.

Spain, which now has a 22 percent unemployment rate, also experienced a huge housing bubble. The country didn’t indulge in excessive borrowing — rather, it ended up with high deficits because it couldn’t collect enough tax revenue to cover its expenses.

Greece, on the other hand, not only borrowed beyond its means, but exacerbated the problem with lots of overspending, little economic production to make up the difference, and some creative bookkeeping to prevent eurozone authorities from realizing the true extent of the situation.

The deficits weren’t piling up everywhere. Countries with strong economies like Germany and France were keeping their output high and their debt at a manageable level. But when 17 nations use the same currency, trouble spreads quickly.
The European Debt Crisis: A Beginner’s Guide

During the European debt crisis, several countries in the Eurozone were faced with high structural deficits, a slowing economy and expensive bailouts that led to rising interest rates, which exacerbated these governments' tenuous positions. In response, the European Union (EU), European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) embarked on a series of bailouts in exchange for reforms that were eventually successful in decreasing interest rates.

The problem originated as many of the periphery countries had asset bubbles in the time leading to the Great Recession, with capital flowing from stronger economies to weaker economies. This economic growth led policymakers to increase public spending. When these asset bubbles popped, it resulted in massive bank losses that precipitated bailouts. The bailouts exacerbated deficits that were already large due to decreased tax revenues and high spending levels.
What caused the European / Eurozone debt crisis?

But if journalism is the first-draft of history, then it’s about time for a second draft. In a new working paper by Wharton economists Fernando Ferreira and Joseph Gyourko, the authors argue that the idea that subprime lending triggered the crisis is misguided. The paper looks at foreclosure data from 1997 through 2012 and finds that while foreclosure activity started first in the subprime market, the foreclosure activity in the prime market quickly outnumbered the number of subprime foreclosures.
I answered this one that last time you brought it up. This paper says nothing about oil prices. It argues underwater prime borrowers were a larger factor than underwater subprime borrowers. aka: jingle mail, strategic default, walkaways:

A strategic default is the decision by a borrower to stop making payments (i.e., to default) on a debt, despite having the financial ability to make the payments.

This is particularly associated with residential and commercial mortgages, in which case it usually occurs after a substantial drop in the house's price such that the debt owed is (considerably) greater than the value of the property — the property has negative equity or is underwater — and is expected to remain so for the foreseeable future, such as following the bursting of a real estate bubble. Such borrowers are called walkaways. The process of strategically defaulting on a home mortgage has been colloquially called "jingle mail" — metaphorically, one mails the keys to the bank.
Strategic default
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 21:51:46

pstarr wrote:
U.S. gasoline prices are at a four-year-high this year as a result of the higher price of oil which has reached three-and-a-half-year high in recent weeks.

The increased pump prices are now eating into the disposable income of the average American household that will have a total of $440 less to spend this year on other goods and services because this money is expected to go for buying higher-priced gasoline.
The wealthy old trolls here (and their indentured live-at-home children asgy) don't care. Not when we have the promise of virtual solar energy and electric roofs?
$440 in higher gas costs huh? Maybe the average american should downsize to a smaller vehicle then. The number one selling vehicle in the US is the Ford F series pickup truck. The 5 year cost of owning this vehicle is $36k. The Honda Civic's 5 year cost is $29k. The annual fuel savings alone would cover that $440. I don't have a lot of sympathy for americans crying about high gas costs when they are driving huge trucks and suvs. All of the top 5 selling vehicles in the US are trucks and suvs.

* The Ford F-Series, Chevrolet Silverado, and Ram Pickup are the top three best-selling vehicles in America through the first half of 2018.

* Pickup trucks and crossover SUVs dominate the American market right now.

* Jeep Cherokee, Jeep Wrangler, and Toyota Tacoma all saw major year-over-year sales increases compared to this time in 2017.
These are the 20 best-selling cars and trucks in America in 2018
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 22:07:32

pstarr wrote:
onlooker wrote:
It was $100/gallon oil that ruined the economy in the US, the Greatest Recession Ever. Each recession (including the Greatest One) was preceded by high oil prices. Not inflation. No other commodity inflation has ever been the cause of a recession. Only oil.

Pstarr, if they don't understand it by now, they never will. Understand the pivotal role oil plays in the general Economy and thus the repurcussions of its price rising considerably :cry:
"They ah afwaid of the truth"
And it seems like it was just the other day you two were schooling us all on the ETP model and how low oil prices were going to bring us doom. Despite waffling between high oil prices = doom/low oil prices = doom, you two never waiver in the certainty of your conclusions. How's that open mind working out again?
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 22:28:54

Economic growth based on credit creation, with the underlying cost of producing oil needed for that growth rising amidst volatile oil prices, and the belief that by adding more credit that underlying cost will by some miracle be reversed.
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 05:24:43

kublikhan wrote: I don't have a lot of sympathy for americans crying about high gas costs when they are driving huge trucks and suvs. All of the top 5 selling vehicles in the US are trucks and suvs

+1

And let's not forget that despite the constant calls for short or intermediate term economic doom on this site due to "peak oil" and "oil being unaffordable" and that the economy can't possibly support oil prices of X -- the energy intensity of a dollar of GDP continues its decades long decline, and is expected to for decades to come.

And this is even WITH idiots, by the millions, who "can't afford oil" making vehicle choices that show the financial intelligence of a house cat, if a limited budget is any part of the equation.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=27032

For the umpteenth time: some inconvenience is nothing remotely close to economic doom -- even if oil prices rise past $100 a bbl. IMO, even if they rise past $200 a bbl. Oh, common sense behavior changes to adapt one's budget aren't economic doom either, though the predictable whining and wailing would make you think so.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: But what about peak oil?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 05:31:32

With the median US household income over $60,000 now, and the rapid increases in the minimum wage by many companies, cities, etc. helping the working "poor", this can only help working lower end consumers deal with rising fuel costs.

https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2018/09/incom ... ew-of-data

But let's not talk about obvious points like that, since balanced financial discussions don't point to rapid economic doom.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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