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Broadly about specifics

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Broadly about specifics

Unread postby Whatever » Sun 24 Jul 2016, 20:18:36

radon1 wrote:
Whatever wrote:Here is the introduction to their formal paper:

Fail. They make no effort to prove that their model does apply to real economies. They simply take a "system", postulate axiomatically that their approach applies to this "system", and then refer to this "system" as to an "economy" and produce their mind games (basically copy-pasting some physics/statistics paper):

2. Economy as an Energy Transduction System
According to our naturalistic approach, an economy is an energy transduction system. To describe its characteristics and evolution in a self-similar manner using the statistical physics of open systems, all entities of the system are regarded as systems themselves (Figure 1). Each entity is associated with an energy density that results from its physical production processes.


You could equally take some computer game strategy and deduce that this game's logic applies to real economies by postulating that it does. Great job.

False. Computer game strategy is not based on natural law.

The physicists approach the economy as an Energy Transduction System because that is what it is. They don't have to prove it.

radon1 wrote:The text itself is full of, let's say, meaningless word soup, for all practical purposes. What is "energy density" of an economy? How do you measure it? What is entropy(!) of an economy?

But this was a good illustration of "naturalists".

You obviously do not understand the paper. Do you really think that makes a good argument?

Read this part:

In this study the cross-disciplinary examination of economics is not an end in itself but a consequence of applying the universal natural law of energy dispersal. Economic systems are not described as mimicking biological systems but both are seen to be manifestations of the ubiquitous natural law that is equally valid also for chemical and physical systems. Admittedly, the principle of increasing entropy seems technically trivial in its mathematical form but its conceptual consistency draws from the principles of hierarchy theory. Self-similarity in energy transduction and dissipative transformations are the key elements that overshadow disciplinary divisions of historical origin.

Traditionally, economic activities are viewed as being motivated because they provide means for human welfare, or simply because they make profit possible. Our definition of economic activity as a means to increase entropy production sums up numerous terms just as does the gross national product (GNP), the familiar measure for all produced goods and services. However, we emphasize that not all and every productivity counts for the economic growth measured by entropy production that turns negative, e.g. due to temporary over production. In a command economy or in a poorly operating market it may take a while before the adverse behaviors are noticed and corrective actions are taken. Indeed, recent studies have revealed that the stability of an economy against incessant endogenous perturbations is compromised when most of its agents are sparsely linked and only a few central hubs have a large number of connections [100,101]. Economic evolution directs naturally toward highly integrated hierarchical systems where statistically independent actions secure maximal flows of energy that rapidly level all accessible gradients of energy. Ensembles of arbitrary actions will be statistically random.

Information deserves no special status in the thermodynamic description of economic activities. Information in its physical representations is a commodity like any other, although its value, measured by entropy increase resulting from instructed actions is often high [40]. Information asymmetry [102] means that informed agents are simply more appropriately equipped with mechanisms than their uninformed counterparts. Adverse selection, e.g., encountered in the principal-agent problem, follows from the subjective nature of decision making that is an inherent characteristic of changing open systems. It is in the interest of the economic system to use various mechanisms, including those that are referred to as rules, traditions and legislation, to promote growth, on the one hand by protecting owner’s rights in accumulating aggregates that are needed to assemble powerful mechanisms, and on the other hand by ensuring that its agents are informed and equipped with adequate mechanisms, e.g. acquired during education.

Utility, that essential but elusive concept, is herein identified with the rate of entropy production; the ultimate but invisible incentive is to disperse energy. Economies evolve by diminishing free energy, equivalent ultimately to increasing entropy, toward more probable distributions of matter under an influx of energy. This reasoning, based on statistical physics, does not undervalue decision making in directing economic activities but allows us to rationalize or framework human behavior.

It is not surprising that a statistical description yields statistical laws and regularities that are characteristic of diverse economic systems, but it is intriguing that the same theory also provides insight into the decision making by individual agents. The self-similar hierarchical formalism considers an individual as a system of its own whose decision making results from a natural process eventually driven by many, and even conflicting, forces. This naturalized view of economic activity, however, does not deny the concept of free will but realizes that it is constrained by bearing free energy configurations.

Economists cannot make accurate forecasts. This paper shows why.

radon1 wrote:You come across as amateurish.

No, you do.

radon1 wrote:You probably don't, see above.

I do see above you. *WAY* over your head.

Never mind.



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Re: Broadly about specifics

Unread postby radon1 » Mon 25 Jul 2016, 04:08:22

Whatever wrote:False. Computer game strategy is not based on natural law.
It may or may not be, but this is irrelevant. The question is not about internal logic of the hypothesis being applied, but about their methodology. The fact that someone knows or believes that whatever he or she comes up with is a "natural law" does not make this "law" automatically applicable to a specific matter until it is proven. They don't prove anything, they simply declare that "this applies here" because they say so, basically. This means that their "research" is nothing more than wishful thinking at this stage. (This is pretty basic stuff, are you a troll or kinda lack understanding? We are back and forth over it a hundredth's time).

radon1 wrote:The text itself is full of, let's say, meaningless word soup, for all practical purposes. What is "energy density" of an economy? How do you measure it? What is entropy(!) of an economy?

But this was a good illustration of "naturalists".

You obviously do not understand the paper. Do you really think that makes a good argument?


Read this part:


Why do you produce more of pointless word soup instead of answering specific questions being asked, about measurable economic indicators?

Economic systems are not described as mimicking biological systems but both are seen to be manifestations of the ubiquitous natural law that is equally valid also for chemical and physical systems.


Seen by whom? Why do they see it like this? And if they see it like this, so what? This is their own personal issue until they demonstrate the opposite, which they don't.

Economists cannot make accurate forecasts. This paper shows why.


It does not. But instead of "showing it", why don't they produce an "accurate economic forecast" themselves? Anyone capable of typing can come up with an idea or two "why economists cannot make accurate forecasts". And the economists do make reasonably good forecasts from time to time anyway.

Thanks for wasting our time with another portion of drivel. Bye.
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Re: Broadly about specifics

Unread postby Whatever » Mon 25 Jul 2016, 04:38:40

radon1 wrote:
Whatever wrote:False. Computer game strategy is not based on natural law.

It may or may not be, but this is irrelevant. The question is not about internal logic of the hypothesis being applied, but about their methodology. The fact that someone knows or believes that whatever he or she comes up with is a "natural law" does not make this "law" automatically applicable to a specific matter until it is proven.

The second law of thermodynamics is a natural law. It applies to everything in the universe. That includes the economy. Why doesn't that make sense to you?

radon1 wrote:This is pretty basic stuff, are you a troll or kinda lack understanding?

Neither. False dilemma.

radon1 wrote:
Economic systems are not described as mimicking biological systems but both are seen to be manifestations of the ubiquitous natural law that is equally valid also for chemical and physical systems.

Seen by whom? Why do they see it like this? And if they see it like this, so what? This is their own personal issue until they demonstrate the opposite, which they don't.

They see it this way because it must be true. How could it be otherwise?

radon1 wrote:
Whatever wrote:Economists cannot make accurate forecasts. This paper shows why.

It does not.

Yes it does, very specifically.

radon1 wrote:But instead of "showing it", why don't they produce an "accurate economic forecast" themselves?

Because they just finished showing why this is impossible. Did you even read the paper?

radon1 wrote:Anyone capable of typing can come up with an idea or two "why economists cannot make accurate forecasts". And the economists do make reasonably good forecasts from time to time anyway.

They do no better than chance.

radon1 wrote:Thanks for wasting our time with another portion of drivel. Bye.

I was just trying to help you understand.



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Re: Broadly about specifics

Unread postby radon1 » Mon 25 Jul 2016, 04:45:20

Whatever wrote:
The second law of thermodynamics is a natural law. It applies to everything in the universe.


It does not apply to "everything in the universe". It applies to very specific entities, that do not even exist in the universe in a pure form. Go back to classroom. Bye.
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Re: Broadly about specifics

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 26 Jul 2016, 02:40:44

The Job of the Economist is to make the real price of oil, something like $1 million dollar a barrel, appear to be really cheap by forcing every bit of labor into the status of a brazilian favela with pathogen laden rats overrunning the place. And thats exactly what is happening everywhere.

This way the hordes of useless cheerleaders and hapless followers have purpose: they can remind each other how cheap everything is while they toil in poverty because that is all advanced education really can ever achieve

Because behind every equation lies either an atomic weapon or a scheme to separate fools from their money.
Outcast_Searcher is a fraud.
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Re: Broadly about specifics

Unread postby steam_cannon » Fri 29 Jul 2016, 12:23:22

Cog wrote:It is possible to break the chains of doomerism if you put your mind to it. I was as doomy as anyone in 2009. A few years later I realized I was wallowing in it, searching out only doomy stories to confirm my bias, and was generally miserable.

I still read the doom posted on the forum but with a open mind as to its validity.
I like this thread, a lot of good thoughts. Regarding doomer mind set and such, there is certainly a large segment of the doomers who confirm their own biases and I like how this thread explores that. And many people underestimate the actions people take to solve problems and help other people. For example hurricane Katrina was a clusterfork, but also people worked very hard to help make a recovery happen. It wasn't forever.

Myself, well technically in some ways I'm a cornucopian in that I'm presently interested in the lenr cold fusion physics experimental groups at university labs and the work at independent companies including Mitsubishi, the gates foundation and I'm even interested in wildcats like Rossi. So technically that makes me a kind of cornucopian simply by entertaining technological ideas. Never the less I still think this is a very dangerous world and we've had a great string of lucks over the last 100 years.

I also think we have a very long list of risks our society faces. Last I checked over the next 20 years the Earth has a 10% chance of getting pretty wrecked solar storms. Another 10% chance of the South East US getting wrecked in the next 50 years by massive quakes around the Madrid fault. So just counting those possible events that both NASA and the USGS agree on, then depending on their age then (back of the napkin guess) at a minimum the doomers have a 10% to 20% chance of seeing a massively disruptive event in their lifetime. And that's not counting changes to the environment, modern nuclear risks like terrorism, economic shenanigans endemic to old civilizations and not counting the impact of resource collapse endemic to old civilizations. So not even counting the main arguments doomers tend to make, even then doomers are playing pretty good odds.

Hmm, I think those two paragraphs basically makes me a cornucopian of doom. Lol. :lol:

Anyway, I think it's true that when doomers estimate 90% chance of society falling apart "forever" are they exaggerating the odds. Exaggerations happen, that's absolutely true. So a detailed exploration into these thinking mistakes is really important and a good thought exercise. So I think this is a great discussion!
"The multiplication force of technology on cognitive differences is massive." -Jordan Peterson
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