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Book: "Collapse: How Societies Succeed ..." by Jared Diamond

A forum to either submit your own review of a book, video or audio interview, or to post reviews by others.

Unread postby ernest » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 18:51:38

BabyPeanut wrote:
ernest wrote:Blaming George Bush for third world overpopulation is a bit over the top. Nobody is forcing people to have babies. Nobody can. Lack of economic and poltical development, and education, are the forces that encourage overpopulation, not the political decisions of one white man.

It's not about forcing people to not have babies. Sexual desire does that perfectly. It's about not funding the medical technologies that would prevent babies despite sex.


Interesting. So George is responsible for the overpopulation of the world because he is not funding research....... Uhmm, how about blamin Sharon or Putin or some other world leader as well. Or is the US somehow responsible for every bad thing that happens?

You do appreciate that you are blaming one man for the world's problems? And if the tech were here today would those people avail themselves of it? Of course not. We already have medical tech that prevents babies, it sounds like you are calling for pre emptive sterilization without consent. I think a guy named Shicklgruber did that once.
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Unread postby BabyPeanut » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 22:44:35

ernest wrote:
BabyPeanut wrote:
ernest wrote:Blaming George Bush for third world overpopulation is a bit over the top. Nobody is forcing people to have babies. Nobody can. Lack of economic and poltical development, and education, are the forces that encourage overpopulation, not the political decisions of one white man.

It's not about forcing people to not have babies. Sexual desire does that perfectly. It's about not funding the medical technologies that would prevent babies despite sex.


Interesting. So George is responsible for the overpopulation of the world because he is not funding research.

There is no research. We have known where babies come from for a long time now. There are contracptives and those are something most third world persons cannot afford.
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Unread postby ernest » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 23:00:15

Still not sure what you are talking about. What research is George Bush supposed to be funding? Contraception? Already exists. Sterilization? You don't have the right to go down that path. Please be precise, and let us know what, exactly, the parameters of the research should be.
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Unread postby BabyPeanut » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 23:08:41

ernest wrote:Still not sure what you are talking about. What research is George Bush supposed to be funding? Contraception? Already exists. Sterilization? You don't have the right to go down that path. Please be precise, and let us know what, exactly, the parameters of the research should be.

GWB is anti-abortion and anti-contraception and he is responsible for preventing groups from receiving funding when they try to help the third world with family planning.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0126-02.htm

Bush's Family Planning Funding Ban Imperils Millions in Developing World
by Judith M. DeSarno
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Unread postby ernest » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 23:40:00

Ahh, I see now. It is America's responsibility, through it's President, to bring civilization and population control to the rest of the world. George Bush is the agent to help all of the backward third world people become good citizens.

This used to be nicknamed "The White Man's Burden" by a chap named Rudyard Kipling, an Englishman who spent a long time writing about English colonialism.

Interesting viewpoint. Are we also supposed to bring food, shelter, and Honda Civics to the rest of the world?

Believe me, I fear overpopulation far more than peak oil. And we have already overpopulated this sad old planet. Blaming one man for it strikes me as a bit naive.
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Unread postby gg3 » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 00:11:15

There *is* one man whose decisions and proclamations, more than those of any other living human being, contribute to the problem and could bring about its resolution:

The Pope.

He could, if he chose, write three sentences roughly as follows, and speak them in the context of a Papal address to the world on any major holiday of the Christian calendar:

"We have concluded that God's purposes for humanity cannot be fulfilled while we threaten all of His creation with our sheer numbers.

"Our doctrines will henceforth support the use of every method of birth control excepting abortion.

"It will henceforth be the duty of good Catholic families everywhere to have one or at most two children, until such time as the world's population has stabilized at the level of approximately two billion people."

The effect of this would carry some weight with the leadership of other major religions, who would issue similar proclamations.

Within a year, the birth rate would start to decline in all regions of the world.
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Unread postby BabyPeanut » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 07:35:24

ernest wrote:Ahh, I see now. It is America's responsibility, through it's President, to bring civilization and population control to the rest of the world. George Bush is the agent to help all of the backward third world people become good citizens.

This used to be nicknamed "The White Man's Burden" by a chap named Rudyard Kipling, an Englishman who spent a long time writing about English colonialism.

Well who on this earth is not hurt by overpopulation? What sort of burden would working on this problem be?

ernest wrote:Interesting viewpoint. Are we also supposed to bring food, shelter, and Honda Civics to the rest of the world?

Why the red herring in your argument? I don't see GWB opposing any of those.

ernest wrote:Believe me, I fear overpopulation far more than peak oil. And we have already overpopulated this sad old planet. Blaming one man for it strikes me as a bit naive.

Not blaming the person who is screwing up by blocking access to the fix strikes me as daft.
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Unread postby ernest » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 10:10:16

I guess we will agree to disagree. Blaming one man for world's ills seems to me to be what we call scapegoating, and nothing else.


It did not appear yesterday. To blame one man for it, no matter what his position, strikes me as quite disingenuous.
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Unread postby Agren » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 10:54:42

It did not appear yesterday. To blame one man for it, no matter what his position, strikes me as quite disingenuous.

Of course it's not GWB:s fault, it don't think that's what BP is saying.
You can however blame GWB for not taking the actions he can to help, such as endorsing the use of contraceptives and so on and so forth. He does have a lot of power, as we all know.
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Unread postby BabyPeanut » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 12:04:22

ernest wrote:I guess we will agree to disagree. Blaming one man for world's ills seems to me to be what we call scapegoating, and nothing else.

If you are hanging off a cliff by one hand and someone comes to save you and I stop them by your logic I'm not to blame when you fall of that cliff.
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Unread postby ernest » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 16:29:52

BabyPeanut wrote:
ernest wrote:I guess we will agree to disagree. Blaming one man for world's ills seems to me to be what we call scapegoating, and nothing else.

If you are hanging off a cliff by one hand and someone comes to save you and I stop them by your logic I'm not to blame when you fall of that cliff.


Who put you hangin off the cliff by one hand? Is your life one that contributes to society?

If someone does evil by inaction that is one thing. You are accusing Bush of evil by action.... He's not stopping your from falling off the cliff, he's just not reaching out his hand. You do understand that the US is the biggest contributor to foreign aid in the world ,right?

It is one thing to stomp on your fingers when hanging off a cliff. Bush is not stomping on your fingers, you just don't like the way he is doing his job.
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"Collapse: How Societies Choose..." Jared Diamond

Unread postby EnviroEngr » Mon 31 Jan 2005, 17:48:23

Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, Jared Diamond
@ Amazon

Meditations on Collapse (a review of Jared Diamond's book)
by Richard Heinberg

Civilizations collapse. That is the rule that we learn from history, and it is a rule whose implications deserve careful thought given the fact that our own civilization-despite its global extent and unsurpassed technological prowess-is busily severing its own ecological underpinnings.

Thus we should pay close attention when Jared Diamond, one of the world's most celebrated and honored science writers, author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning Guns, Germs, and Steel, devotes his newest and already best-selling book to the subject of how and why whole societies sometimes lose their way and descend into chaos.

Diamond uses his considerable popular nonfiction prose-writing skills-carefully honed in the crafting of scores of articles for Natural History, Discover, Nature, and Geo-to trace the process of collapse in several ancient societies (including the Easter Islanders, the Maya, the Anasazi, and the Greenland Norse colony) and show parallels with trends in several modern nations (Rwanda, Haiti, and Australia).

One theme quickly emerges: the environment plays a crucial role in each instance. Resource depletion, habitat destruction, and population pressure combine in different ways in different circumstances; but when their mutually reinforcing impacts become critical, societies are sometimes challenged beyond their ability to respond and consequently disintegrate.

The ancient Maya practiced intensive slash-and-burn horticulture, growing mostly corn. Their population increased dramatically, peaking in the eighth century C.E., but this resulted in the over-cutting of forests; meanwhile their fragile soils were becoming depleted. A series of droughts turned problem to crisis. Yet kings and nobles, rather than comprehending and responding to the crisis, evidently remained fixated on the short-term priorities of enriching themselves, building monuments, waging wars, and extracting sufficient food from the peasants to support their ostentatious lifestyles. The population of Mayan cities quickly began a decline that would continue for several centuries, culminating in levels 90 percent lower than at the civilization's height in 700.

The Easter Islanders, whose competing clan leaders built giant stone statues in order to display their prestige and to symbolize their connection with the gods, cut every last tree in their delicate environment to use in erecting these eerie monuments. Hence the people lost their source of raw materials for building canoes, which were essential for fishing. Meanwhile bird species were driven into extinction, crop yields fell, and the human population declined, so that by the time Captain Cook arrived in 1774 the remaining Easter Islanders, who had long since resorted to cannibalism, were, in Cook's words, "small, lean, timid, and miserable."

Regarding the Anasazi of the American Southwest, who left behind stone ceremonial centers that had been integrated into a far-flung empire, I can do no better than to quote Diamond's own summary:

"Despite these varying proximate causes of abandonments, all were ultimately due to the same fundamental challenge: people living in fragile and difficult environments, adopting solutions that were brilliantly successful and understandable in the short run, but that failed or else created fatal problems in the long run, when people became confronted with external environmental changes or human-caused environmental changes that cities without written histories and without archaeologists could not have anticipated."

A second important theme in the book is that human choice can make the difference between prosperity and ruin. Diamond is quick to point out that he is not an "environmental determinist": while the leaders of the Maya and Easter Islanders made disastrous decisions that plunged their societies into collapse, others did better. He describes how the Inuit in the Arctic and Polynesians on Tikopia managed to create ways of life that were indefinitely sustainable, and why the Dominican Republic has had a more peaceful and economically stable history than its neighbor, Haiti.

Diamond argues that our modern global industrial society is creating some of the very same sorts of environmental problems that caused ancient societies to fail, plus four new ones: "human-caused climate change, buildup of toxic chemicals in the environment, energy shortages and full human utilization of the earth's photosynthetic capacity." Echoing the conclusions of the Limits to Growth study of 1972, Diamond notes that many of these problems are likely to "become globally critical within the next few decades."

There is much to admire in this book. Diamond's essential message-that our very persistence as a civilized society may depend upon well-led efforts to reduce the negative impact of our economic processes upon nature-is one that more people desperately need to hear. The author artfully skewers classic one-liner objections such as, "The environment has to be balanced against the economy," "Technology will solve our problems," and "If we exhaust one resource, we can always switch to some other resource meeting the same need." Collapse draws the reader into rich and fascinating discussions of specific modern instances in which collapse in some form already has occurred, is occurring, or is likely to occur-Rwanda, Haiti, and Montana-showing in each instance how political and economic events, emerging from underlying environmental crises and constraints, can lead to economic reversal, social disintegration, or even genocide.

Yet while this is a helpful discussion of the subject for readers who have never before contemplated the possibility that modern fossil-fuel-based industrialism may be unsustainable in the starkest meaning of the term, for readers who have been contemplating that fact for some time-and especially for those who have already made some efforts to draw parallels between the exuberance of modern industrial society and the similar qualities of ancient empires in their florescent stage immediately before their demise-Diamond's efforts fall short.

While the book is rigorous in detail, it is haphazard with regard to theory. Diamond's methodological prowess shines, for example, as he investigates the reasons for the failure of the Viking colony in Greenland: he uses the most recent archaeological data to build a careful, persuasive case that the Norse farmers simply failed to adjust their cultural attitudes to take advantage of the most abundant local protein source-fish-and hence starved. In the process, we learn a great deal about how these people lived, and about how archaeologists gather and piece together evidence in order to arrive at conclusions about the human past. Details matter, and Diamond is very good at moving beyond superficial similes ("America is like Rome prior to its fall") to look at particular places with care and nuance.

However, when presented with such a sweeping title and subject, readers need breadth of overview as much as depth of specificity. Why did the author select the examples he did? Why did he not choose to discuss Imperial China or Rome, or the ancient Mesopotamians or Egyptians? Why not, in addition to a thorough discussion of a few emblematic societies, also offer a comprehensive and systematic survey of all previous civilizations? This is not as daunting a prospect as it might seem: there have only been about 24 civilizations in all of human history (if we define civilization as a society with cities, writing, full-time division of labor, and relatively high levels of technological complexity). The wealth of data available would permit a fascinating comparative overview using a range of selected criteria.

Diamond refers on only three occasions (and then briefly) to Joseph Tainter' s classic The Collapse of Complex Societies (Cambridge University Press, 1988), which is widely considered the standard work on the subject. He rightly criticizes Tainter for underemphasizing the role of environmental fa ctors-especially resource depletion-in previous instances of collapse. However, Diamond does not take the time to explain Tainter's valuable contributions to the discussion. It is difficult for the reader to have the sense of building on a previous theory without an understanding of what the previous theory is. Theory was in fact one of the great strengths of Tainter 's book: he surveyed all known complex societies, and systematically assessed dozens of prior serious discussions of collapse (including the ideas of Arnold Toynbee, Elman Service, Pitirim Sorokin, and Alfred Kroeber), so that when he got around to introducing his own hypothesis (which can be summarized as the inevitability of the diminishing of returns on societal investments in complexity) the reader felt a sense of participation in the refinement of our collective understanding of the problem. This doesn't happen to nearly the same degree in Collapse. Why? Perhaps Diamond was trying to avoid sounding academic and wanted to write in such a way that the maximum number of readers would commit themselves to the task of wading through a long book on a dreary subject. But something was sacrificed in the process.

Important contributions to the discussion about collapse have been made since the publication of Tainter's magnum opus; one that comes readily to mind is John Michael Greer's paper "How Civilizations Fall: A Theory of Catabolic Collapse," with its distinction between maintenance collapse, in which a society recovers and again achieves imperial status, and depletion collapse, in which disintegration is complete and final. Greer's essay-which he has encountered some difficulty in placing in a peer-reviewed journal (it is currently archived at www.museletter.com ) -contains significant theoretical insights, though it comes from a relatively unknown researcher working with easily available historical materials. One cannot help but wonder why Diamond, with the considerable resources of a major publisher and willing graduate students, could not have done much more to advance the theory of collapse.

A second disappointment that readers already familiar with the subject matter may encounter with Collapse is the perception that, while the author is warning us that modern industrial civilization may be headed the way of the Classic Maya or the Easter Islanders, he seems satisfied with this warning. He offers, in essence, a message of the type we have come to expect: Humanity is undermining its ecological viability, but there are things we can do to turn the tide. Indeed, Diamond predictably devotes the last section of his last chapter to "reasons for hope," leaving the reader with evidence for thinking that collapse will not occur in our own instance after all. This excuses him from asking a question that appears to be tugging at more minds, and with more urgency, every day: What if it's already too late? Yes, if collapse can be averted, we should of course be working toward that end. But suppose for a moment that we have passed the point of no return, and that some form of collapse is now inevitable. What should we be doing in that case?

If we simply regard the question as unthinkable (because its premise is itself unthinkable), then we foreclose a discussion that could be extremely important. In a moment I intend briefly to state three good reasons for thinking that collapse is in fact unavoidable at this point. But even if there is only a moderate likelihood that industrial society is headed toward history's dustbin, shouldn't we be devoting at least some mental effort toward planning for a survivable collapse? Shouldn't we be thinking about what needs to be preserved so that future generations will have the information, skills, and tools that they need in order to carry on?

Here are my three reasons for concluding that Diamond has in fact made an extremely timid case for the likelihood of global industrial collapse; there are certainly others.

1. Diamond does not even hint at the phenomenon of the imminent global oil production peak. Even though he cites Paul Roberts' book the End of Oil and Kenneth Deffeyes' Hubbert's Peak in a note on page 551, he shows no understanding whatever of these authors' work. There is no discussion of the fact that oil production capacity is declining rapidly in nearly two dozen countries, while the world's reliance on oil for its essential energy needs continues to grow with each passing year. This is not a minor oversight. At least four independent studies now forecast that the global oil peak is likely to occur as soon as 2005 and probably before 2010, which means that there will not be enough time to invest in replacement energy sources before the decline begins; nor can we be assured that adequate replacement energy sources exist. In the estimation of a growing chorus of informed observers, the oil peak is likely to be a trigger for global economic crisis and the outbreak of a series of devastating resource wars.

2. At the same time, the global economic system and the world's monetary system are becoming increasingly dysfunctional for other reasons. Currently, the US dollar functions as the global reserve currency, and the dollar (like most other currencies) is loaned into existence at interest. This means that continual economic growth is structurally required in order to stave off a currency crash. Yet infinite growth within a closed system (e.g., the Earth) is impossible. So how long can growth continue? There are strong signs that the American economy, and hence that of the entire world, is headed soon toward a "correction" of unprecedented proportions. US debt (in the forms of consumer debt, government debt, and trade deficits) is at truly frightening levels and the American mortgage and real estate bubbles appear ready to burst at any moment. If one looks deeper, there are still other reasons to conclude that the global economy has nearly reached fundamental and non-negotiable restrictions on expansion. In his book The Limits of Business Development and Economic Growth (Palgrave Macmillan, 2005), business strategist Mats Larsson makes the point that most of technology and business development in the past has had as its goal the reduction of time and cost in manufacturing. But nothing can be done at less than no time or at less than no cost. He cites the example of the printing and distribution of books and other written media: with these, Gutenberg famously reduced time and cost. Now, the Internet enables the electronic reproduction and distribution of books, films, and music at almost no cost and in almost no time. Similarly, labor cost in China is probably now at close to the absolute theoretical minimum. Larsson's conclusion is that economic growth is perilously close to its ultimate bounds, even when resource constraints are not factored into the calculation.

3. Averting collapse would require changes that must be championed and partly implemented by political leaders: unprecedented levels of national and international cooperation would be needed in order to allocate essential resources in order to avert deadly competition for them as they become scarce, and our economic and monetary systems would have to be reformed despite pressure from the entrenched interests of wealthy elites. Yet the American political regime-the most important in the world, given US military supremacy and economic clout-has evidently become terminally dysfunctional, and is now the province of a group of extremist ideologues who apparently have virtually no interest in international cooperation or economic reform. This is a fact widely recognized outside the US, and by many sober observers within the country. The problem is not merely that politicians are being bought and sold by corporations (this has been going on for decades), but that the entire system has been hijacked by partisans who pride themselves on making decisions solely on the basis of ideology and in supreme disdain for "reality." At the same time, the US electoral system has been eviscerated and commandeered by a single party (using various forms of systematic fraud that have now become endemic), so that a peaceful rectification of the situation by a vote of the people has become virtually impossible. Moreover, the American media have been so cowed and co-opted by the dominant party that most of the citizenry is blissfully unaware of its plight and is thus extremely unlikely to vigorously oppose the current trends. Diamond shows some limited awareness of this truly horrifying state of affairs, and he realizes that wise political leadership would be essential to the avoidance of collapse. Yet he refuses to draw the obvious conclusion: the most powerful of the world's current leaders are every bit as irrational as the befuddled kings and chiefs who brought the Maya and Easter Islanders to their ruin.

None of these three problems can be solved quickly or easily if at all; each of the first two is by itself a sufficient cause for collapse; the third will effectively preclude any attempts to reverse the slide toward international chaos; and all three will no doubt rebound upon each other synergistically.

Diamond's subtitle, "How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed," implies that, for modern industrial societies, success is still an option. Yet if "success" implies the ability to maintain current population levels and current per-capita rates of consumption, then we may already have exhausted our choices. We cannot replace dwindling non-renewable resources, we cannot make industrial wastes disappear, we cannot quickly restabilize the global climate, and we cannot revive species that have become extinct.

What, then, are Diamond's "reasons for hope"? He offers only two: first, that our problems are, in principle at least, solvable; and second, that environmental thinking has become more common in recent years. But for hope to be realized, he says, modern societies will have to make good choices in two areas. We will need "courageous, successful long-term planning," which, he says, is indeed being undertaken by some governments and political leaders, at least some of the time. What Diamond doesn't mention is that the single instance of long-term planning that might have made all the difference to the survival of our civilization-a sustained choice by the US to wean itself from fossil fuels, beginning in the 1970s at the time of the first oil shocks-was not followed through; as a result, economic crises and resource wars are now virtually assured. We will also, he says, need to reconsider some of our core values, and he cites a few examples of modern societies that have done this (e.g., over two decades ago China decided to restrict the traditional freedom of individual reproductive choice). However, Diamond may be underestimating the degree to which some of the "values" that we would have to change (such as our mania for continuous economic growth) are not mere preferences or easily reversible government policies, but necessities structurally reinforced by multiple layers of institution, privilege, and power.

Perhaps the message of Collapse would have had more of a cutting-edge quality if the book had appeared in the early 1970s, when mere warnings were appropriate. Collapse might have added to the chorus of voices raised on the first Earth Day, and might have helped drive home the importance of the often-misrepresented Limits to Growth study.

Today, however, we are living in a different era. Collapse has, in effect, already begun, even though we have seen only the first of the trigger events that will eventually rivet public attention on the cascading process of disintegration taking place around us. The question is no longer that of avoiding collapse, but rather of making the best of it.

One of the many virtues of Joseph Tainter's book was that he dissipated some of the pejorative cloud surrounding the word collapse, defining it simply as a reduction in social complexity. This helps us to see that the process can manifest in different ways: it can occur slowly or quickly (usually the process takes decades or even centuries); it can be complete or partial; and it can be controlled or chaotic. Such an understanding leads one to envision the possibility of a managed collapse.

Given Jared Diamond's emphasis on choice, it might have been helpful if he had studied what people chose to do during previous periods of collapse, and how certain actions helped or hindered personal survival and the survival of culture.

In our own instance, efforts to manage the collapse might take several forms. Initial work along these lines might be indistinguishable from actions taken to try to prevent collapse-the sorts of things many people have been doing at least since the 1970s: the active protest of war, the protection of ecosystems and species, the defense of indigenous and traditional cultures, and the adoption of lifestyles of voluntary simplicity.

Then, as fossil-fuel-based support infrastructures began to disintegrate, other strategies might come to the fore: efforts to re-localize economies, to build intentional communities, and to regain forgotten handcraft skills. Like the European monks of the Middle Ages, forward-thinking groups with useful knowledge and abilities could build cultural lifeboats-communities of preservation and service that help surrounding regions cope with change and stress.

It would be foolish to assert that such a program could avert all of the potholes on the road down to a sustainable level of societal complexity; however, if we do not make efforts to manage the process of economic and societal contraction, it is easy to imagine collapse scenarios that would be hellish indeed.

One hesitates to criticize too harshly a book that tries to tell the world a truth that all too many refuse to hear. And yet this isn't the book that it could have been. At this point in time, we could stand a prominent book by an important author that finally announces what so many of us know all too well: collapse has begun.

Such a message need not be fatalistic in tone, because fatalism implies absence of choice. Diamond is right: we always have some control over events, or at least our response to events. The choice we have now is not as to whether our society will collapse, but how. Ladies and gentleman, the ship is sinking. I suggest that we set aside our immediate plans and consider how best to proceed, given the facts.

--

Richard Heinberg is the author of Powerdown: Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World and The Party’s Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies; he is a Core Faculty member of New College of California in Santa Rosa.


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{Thanks fastbike for pointing that out; link repaired; EE}
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Unread postby Liamj » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 05:55:42

I haven't read 'Collapse' so can't say if Heinberg treats it fairly, but I don't actually care. More signif for me is Heinbergs emphasis,

The choice we have now is not as to whether our society will collapse, but how.


I agree that its now How rather than If, and this must compromise plans made in infinite growth land.
And that this might shock/outrage/provoke-into-reaction many ppl shows how far the public debate has still to go. We're starting the slide down with so few even aware of the gravity that moves us. Expect many bizarre rationales, wasted efforts, and pipe dreams, as (quote J.Clarke) 'every spiv in town tries to get his dick in the till.'

Can it be proven that oil-energy depletion will force collapse? It already has been shown in theory, IMHO, but I can't myself see much point in trying to generate stats & demonstrate such in public lobbying, given decades of denial over climate change, DDT, ozone depletion, fishery exhaustion...

Can the uninitiated be sold the message of adapt, cos collapse-underway? It'd have to be a nearly religious conversion, and it seems likely much wrong-thinking would thus persist (e.g. hairdryers to heat apartment)

Is halfgood good enough? Maybe good enough for now, but how long is now? e.g. Say broadacre ethanol crops have an EROEI of 1.5 using current capital, allowing 30% (entirely fictional numbers) of cars to stay on road. Great, looks a go-er energeticly, populace happy some relic of past lifestyle maintained.
3 yrs on, spares/repairs no longer available, no more ethanol, & at opportunity cost of 3 harvests worth of food crops. To halfgood proponents who couldn't imagine unavailability of spares, its an act of god. To hungry citizens another 3 yrs down the track, its a mistake on the scale of the USSRs enthusiasm for Lamark.
So adaptation without admitting collapse and having some decent guesses about its progress may be counter productive, benefiting few. There are already moves to make hay out of calamity, and those opportunists aren't selling the whole story.

Where this is leading me is, maybe "We're it", as far as semiknowledgeable & free-to-act humans going into the collapse goes. Maybe there wont be any major expansion of this circle of knowledge (maybe a million or two more).

Maybe all POilers out there waiting for more allies to materialise, waiting for govt or organisational leadership, waiting for Official Confirmation, need instead to get real, and do what they can with what they have, themselves.

So i'd better get going then :) Apologies for wandering so far from Heinberg & Diamonds ideas.
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Unread postby joewp » Tue 05 Apr 2005, 22:48:09

I'm a first time poster.

1. Diamond does not even hint at the phenomenon of the imminent global oil production peak.


I noticed that too. I finished Collapse about a six weeks ago, and then I decided to find what threats to out survival their might be, and that's when I discovered peak oil production. This line prompted me to go to the source. I just emailed Mr. Diamond asking about his views (if any) on global peak oil and its impact to current societies around the world.

His would be an important voice in this debate.
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Diamond

Unread postby EnviroEngr » Wed 06 Apr 2005, 19:38:25

{joewp,

Post his reply here if he sends one to you and I'll take it from there. muchas gracias; EE}
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Re: Diamond

Unread postby joewp » Fri 08 Apr 2005, 21:31:57

EnviroEngr wrote:{joewp,

Post his reply here if he sends one to you and I'll take it from there. muchas gracias; EE}


Still waiting. Will post it here (with his permission) if ever he replies.

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Book: "Collapse" by Jared Diamond

Unread postby jmacdaddio » Mon 16 May 2005, 22:14:37

This is a good book which outlines the basic reasons why some societies fail in the face of resource challenges (Easter Island, Greenland Norse, Rwanda - very much a resource issue when you look past ethnic strife). He also shows how societies succeed in the face of resource issues or at the very least come to terms with their surroundings (Japan, Iceland Norse, certain New Guinea tribes). Interestingly oil extraction when done right can have little environmental impact (at least at the drilling and shipping sites - greenhouse gas is another story) and Chevron has a good reputation for being a clean-drilling firm. Mining is much more devastating to its surroundings. The book comes down in some ways to explaining mining vs. harvesting ... often we think we're harvesting crops, fish, timber, etc. when in reality we are mining the source until it's gone.

Great book even though it will be a case of preaching to the choir for a lot of folks here.
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Unread postby Jack » Mon 16 May 2005, 22:25:45

I agree - it's not a small book, but superbly written. Anyone who hasn't read it needs to!
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Unread postby aldente » Mon 16 May 2005, 22:42:43

Richard Heinberg wrote a good review about this book
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Jared Diamond's Collapse Book in Demand

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 17 May 2005, 21:04:05

There are 34 branches of the San Diego Public Library that have a copy of Diamond's book about collapsing civilizations. Every single one of them is either checked out or held by request. I think this End Times notion has sunk deeply into the public consciousness.
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