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Bitcoin uses far too much energy

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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 14:45:21

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:....quantum computers are the stuff of imagination so far, unless you have a link for me.

Quantum computers are now under development....


That round goes to KaiserJeep.

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Who will win the next round, I wonder? :)
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 16:35:27

Well, according to ETP, the rise in energy consumption from bitcoin mining should result in reduction of the net energy available to the consumer, and consequently, the people will not be able to afford to pay for bitcoin, and bitcoin's price will have to stay below the net affordable curve or whatnot.

Or, alternatively, the introduction of quantum computers into the oil extraction processes should result in energy savings, leading to more net energy available to the consumer, so that the people will be able to pay more for oil, therefore the oil price will rise.

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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 18:08:05

The people paying for the energy consumption of cryptocurrencies are the banks and merchants. Don't think they won't notice that cryptocurrencies cost them more energy and compute time than credit/debit transactions and start applying fees to them.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 01:20:05

KaiserJeep wrote:The people paying for the energy consumption of cryptocurrencies are the banks and merchants. Don't think they won't notice that cryptocurrencies cost them more energy and compute time than credit/debit transactions and start applying fees to them.

I keep seeing typical fees for bitcoin in the $25 to $30 range. And also that transactions take an hour to many hours to settle.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/19/big-tra ... tcoin.html

So much for EnergyUnlimited's claims that Bitcoins problems aren't any worse than Visa's problems. Visa doesn't charge you a 1500% fee for a cup of coffee, and make you wait many hours at the cash register.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 01:32:51

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:The people paying for the energy consumption of cryptocurrencies are the banks and merchants. Don't think they won't notice that cryptocurrencies cost them more energy and compute time than credit/debit transactions and start applying fees to them.

I keep seeing typical fees for bitcoin in the $25 to $30 range. And also that transactions take an hour to many hours to settle.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/19/big-tra ... tcoin.html

So much for EnergyUnlimited's claims that Bitcoins problems aren't any worse than Visa's problems. Visa doesn't charge you a 1500% fee for a cup of coffee, and make you wait many hours at the cash register.

Look at rapid changes of value of bitcoin yesterday.
Check it at worldcoinindex.com, Bittrex or elsewhere.
My son walked approximately $120 000 richer out of this, within few hours.
Buy cheap, sell expensive.
There is no other market these days which would allow you that.
Bitcoin is not designed to buy you a cup of coffe. It is designed to make you rich.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby tita » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 12:03:47

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Look at rapid changes of value of bitcoin yesterday.
Check it at worldcoinindex.com, Bittrex or elsewhere.
My son walked approximately $120 000 richer out of this, within few hours.
Buy cheap, sell expensive.
There is no other market these days which would allow you that.
Bitcoin is not designed to buy you a cup of coffe. It is designed to make you rich.

Yeah, but you have to find a sucker who wants to buy high. If your son bought bitcoin when it dipped at 10'000$ yesterday, yeah he sure made a potential 18% profit in the next hour... at the sum you were talking, that would mean he invested around $700k and sold at $820k

But the guy who bought at $820k currently lost $200k if he kept those bitcoins.

This is more like gambling... And like in gambling, people who lose money don't talk much about it, while the winner, or winner's fathers, are eager to tell how well they did.

And apart from this gambling use, I'm not sure of what is the actual use of bitcoin...
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 12:44:17

Bitcoin and other crypto are very sweet.
There are countless cretins investing in these, peoples who should keep far away from stock exchanges but for some reason they don't. It is not too difficult to guess behavior of these peoples few minutes into the future and that is all you need while playing short.
Dynamic of sales and purchases is very naive. You are not gambling against hardened professionals but against fools. So my son is regularly scooping substantial money.
He started his adventure few months ago with $20000. Now he is well in excess of $1 million, approaching 1.5 million.
Mind you, until very recently these FOMO type cretins were also making decent money, but less so than they would if doing nothing and play "long".
Now, while market goes down, they will certainly loose.
Tough life.

What is the use of bitcoin and other crypto?
They are sweet instruments allowing you to get rich and very quick (Yes, getting rich quick is possible, despite what whiners are telling you!!!). I care little about other uses, they might be there or not but for me they are irrelevant, albeit it is reassuring to know that government agencies might be powerless to confiscate (steal) your bitcoins without advanced quantum computers, which they don't have yet.

BTW, he invested more and didn't scoop full 18%.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 12:49:11

OK, I'll bite. Your son is making money, so why don't YOU take your whole retirement fund and do the same with it?

You are obviously a believer, while I'm a skeptic. Convince me, because I see Bitcoin as yet another form of pyramid scheme, and believe that after enough people jump onboard, those who understand what it's really about will sell everything, initiating the panic that leaves them rich and the late Bitcoin investers broke.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 13:14:48

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Buy cheap, sell expensive.
There is no other market these days which would allow you that.
Bitcoin is not designed to buy you a cup of coffe. It is designed to make you rich.
tita wrote:Yeah, but you have to find a sucker who wants to buy high.

...

And apart from this gambling use, I'm not sure of what is the actual use of bitcoin...

Exactly, Tita.

Ok, so now EU, you're admitting Bitcoin "investing" is really about short term speculation, not some long term intrinsic value as a widespread currency. Fine. I appreciate the honesty.

So here we are currently with Bitcoin hovering a bit over $10,000 as we speak, or about $4000ish below where it has been averaging in recent weeks.

So what's an intelligent speculator to do? Buy now? Wait for $5000? Wait for it to start back up above X and buy then?

I could perhaps see the case where people honestly believe that somehow Crypto "X" will end up being a HUGE deal and to just buy and hold and make a lot of money eventually and ignore the volatility. (That might be right or wrong, but it would at least be based on economic logic.)

1). I don't see how Bitcoin is "X" unless the $30ish fee for a cup of coffee is fixed. And I don't see that happening without a lot of forking, which has lots of risks of its own. And I don't see how anyone can be confident in choosing the correct "X", with governmental self interest in taxation being the reality.

2). But over time, it's VERY hard to claim, apriori, you just buy low and sell high and make lots of money trading ANYTHING. *** If it were easy, lots of people could do it for a living in various markets, instead of, say, selling useless "stock of the day" newsletters. Also, if there were anything to it, then technical analysis would actually have a strong proven result, but it fails compared to long term buy and hold, just on the savings of trading expenses.

*** Hell, I'm having trouble doing this with selling volatility in stock options in companies I understand, where I'm earning premium on volatility which makes the options' premiums guaranteed to be zero (over intrinsic value) in a week or two. (It keeps me occupied and I'm trading with money I can afford to lose, so it's more like an experiment for me).

...

So now that we're getting to the honest heart of it -- seriously, Tita seems to have nailed it.

No pain, no gain. 3rd degree burns on much of one's body with money borrowed via second mortgages and credit card debt is how a lot of late entrants to this game are playing, via recent news stories. (Money they can't afford to lose). Good luck with the odds.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 13:28:12

KaiserJeep wrote:OK, I'll bite. Your son is making money, so why don't YOU take your whole retirement fund and do the same with it?

You are obviously a believer, while I'm a skeptic. Convince me, because I see Bitcoin as yet another form of pyramid scheme, and believe that after enough people jump onboard, those who understand what it's really about will sell everything, initiating the panic that leaves them rich and the late Bitcoin investers broke.

Once he made first ~$200 000, I have thrown in ~$50 000 of my own.
Mind you, initial $20000 I gave him too, because he had none.
So now I am Mr 20% (together with my wife).
Everyone should do what he is good at and in this game my son is brilliant. My trades (I also play small time) are also winning over market background but he is much more capable, so he manages most of money and has last say.
It makes him very proud because he is only 20.
It is very important to buck up as fast as possible because at any time eldorado might end or get spoiled by governments but what you grab now is yours. Taxes are paid to fuck them off, we can afford it.
We even employed chartered accountants.

So entire family is very much like on military drill, different exchanges are constantly (24/7) watched (we play on several exchanges, in few countries), any developing stupidity of FOMO or other opportunity is promptly spotted, information processed and fed to my son and then he decides which leeds to follow. Sometime I will timidly proceed with my own trade if opportunity is too good to miss and my son is busy sitting on larger positions.

And yes, bitcoin might be a pyramid scheme, maybe there is something more in it but even if not I don't care.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 17 Jan 2018, 13:49:24

Outcast_Searcher wrote:So here we are currently with Bitcoin hovering a bit over $10,000 as we speak, or about $4000ish below where it has been averaging in recent weeks.

So what's an intelligent speculator to do? Buy now? Wait for $5000? Wait for it to start back up above X and buy then?

Key factor here is that you are playing mainly against very inexperienced gamblers, mostly members of public which are not professionals but just plain FOMO-type cretins. Trend chasers etc.

It is not that difficult to guess their moves few minutes forward. You never wait "from local bottom to local top", you are happy with 30 -50% of that and you can work out immediate future base on trades dynamic.
You are *not* sitting on position for more than few hours and usually it is only several minutes, just to scoop 0.5-1% of profit each time. Exponential function so much discussed on this forum will do the rest. Sometimes you may "follow on" your position to scoop much more. You are taking and closing positions few times a day, often 10 times and more.
And if you are loosing, you are closing positions *fast*. Do not use "stop loss" - broker knows where they are and you cannot trust him. Stop loss is only in your head and is executed by your finger pressing *enter*.
You don't need leverage in crypto trade and it is rarely on offer. My son stirr clear of it.

And for God sake, you must forget that $$$$$$ is on the table because otherwise it would drive you crazy.
These are just meaningless numbers which are expected to grow (and hopefully will).

Enough of free lecture. These are basics which might set one going. Rest you must learn yourself.
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