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Bitcoin & crypto?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Cog » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 11:11:27

The IRS is taking more than an average interest in these crypto-currencies. People who think they are being slick and not reporting gains are in for one hell of a shock. Oh and if you think you can sell bitcoin for a profit and immediately buy litecoin or some other crypto-currency, and not report this profit on your tax return, you are in for a big surprise as well. The IRS views this the same way as if I sold BP stock and bought Exxon stock. They are not like things even though they are both oil companies.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby careinke » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 01:57:15

All taxes are theft. That said, give Cesar his due, the empire has way more force than you do.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 08:11:09

Yes, the most sensible level of taxation is one where paying is greatly less trouble than the effort to avoid paying. For most people your pie is small enough that the government slice doesn’t hurt too much, so straining to avoid paying is not worth the effort.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:10:23

careinke wrote:All taxes are theft. That said, give Cesar his due, the empire has way more force than you do.


If taxes are theft, then utilizing government services provided by taxes, any at all, without paying taxes, is theft. Maybe we need a list of government services paid for with taxes that anti-tax monkeys couldn't do so well without.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:56:33

You mean like people using EBT, Section 8 housing, and Medicaid? Because those people certainly don't pay federal taxes. To compound the theft, they also get a tax credit for each addition to their brood.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:19:59

Cog wrote:You mean like people using EBT, Section 8 housing, and Medicaid? Because those people certainly don't pay federal taxes. To compound the theft, they also get a tax credit for each addition to their brood.


I also mean you, enjoying the security provided by the military, the roads you drive on, the food you eat - insured by tax dollars, the oil you use from public lands...... I could go on and on. No ICE? No law enforcement or court system? Who certifies and registers the deeds to your property down at the courthouse? Section 8 housing? Maybe you would rather those folks camp out on your lawn or in your parks. I agree many of these systems are bloated and broken, but you haven't offered any alternatives that I have seen. Anarchy?

.... and do you really think Monsanto, Tyson, Cargill, et al, want to lose the 75+ billion dollar subsidy that is EBT (SNAP) and other food programs? Do you think the massive healthcare industry is interested in ending Medicaid? You may not invest in those things, but millions of people like you do.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby careinke » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 14:52:51

GHung wrote:
careinke wrote:All taxes are theft. That said, give Cesar his due, the empire has way more force than you do.


If taxes are theft, then utilizing government services provided by taxes, any at all, without paying taxes, is theft. Maybe we need a list of government services paid for with taxes that anti-tax monkeys couldn't do so well without.


So, if I come into your house with a gun and take your money. Then take the money and give it to your neighbors, it's not theft? Heck, I may even use some of the money to paint your driveway. Isn't it still theft?
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 15:00:45

careinke wrote:
GHung wrote:
careinke wrote:All taxes are theft. That said, give Cesar his due, the empire has way more force than you do.


If taxes are theft, then utilizing government services provided by taxes, any at all, without paying taxes, is theft. Maybe we need a list of government services paid for with taxes that anti-tax monkeys couldn't do so well without.


So, if I come into your house with a gun and take your money. Then take the money and give it to your neighbors, it's not theft? Heck, I may even use some of the money to paint your driveway. Isn't it still theft?

A great point. But today, to clearly call taxation theft (as it is, at least to some extent) is the height of political incorrectness, and also hurts certain peoples' feelings.

I always find it amusing how so many high tax loving loving liberals spew much hate on corporate profits -- as though if corporations didn't make big profits, they could still collect the massive amounts of tax from them they crave so much.

No cognitive dissonance there. :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 15:08:04

I can't seem to find it now, but a couple/few weeks ago I read an article on the internet pointing out that to legally buy or sell bitcoin, there will be "registration" information taken about you. The implication and commentary was clearly that this would be the equivalent of 1099 tax reporting information, equivalent to what a rare coin and/or bullion dealer is required to have/report for 1099 purposes.

The point was that the days of assuming Bitcoin is a reliable and risk free way to escape capital gains taxation was over -- if you want to deal in clearly legal transactions.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 17:11:42

careinke wrote:
GHung wrote:
careinke wrote:All taxes are theft. That said, give Cesar his due, the empire has way more force than you do.


If taxes are theft, then utilizing government services provided by taxes, any at all, without paying taxes, is theft. Maybe we need a list of government services paid for with taxes that anti-tax monkeys couldn't do so well without.


So, if I come into your house with a gun and take your money. Then take the money and give it to your neighbors, it's not theft? Heck, I may even use some of the money to paint your driveway. Isn't it still theft?


Again, you guys conveniently skipped the gist of my comment regarding the taxpayer funded services you all use. Get back to me when you utilize no government services at all. You also skipped the part where I said the system is bloated and broken, but none of you is offering any alternatives. I'm listening......

O_S said; "But today, to clearly call taxation theft (as it is, at least to some extent) is the height of political incorrectness, and also hurts certain peoples' feelings."

If you were referring to me, you are totally off the mark, again. I don't do PC and don't get my feelings hurt, especially by the likes of people here. Again, when you can say that you do not benefit from any tax-funded government services, get back to me. Can you say that? Any of you? It's a simple question. What's the matter, McFly.....?

O_S goes on; "I always find it amusing how so many high tax loving loving liberals spew much hate on corporate profits -- as though if corporations didn't make big profits, they could still collect the massive amounts of tax from them they crave so much. "

I guess you have to make things up to stay amused, eh? Who here "spews much hate on corporate profits" as you say. Put up, O_S, or admit you pull this crap out of your wazoo. I doubt you will, because you never back these claims with actual quotes. Fact is, I don't like taxes any more than most people, but am balanced enough to see them as a necessary evil.

One more time, what are your alternatives? I've always been in favor of user fees, but they are unrealistic for many things like the military and law enforcement. I'm still waiting for you geniuses to provide a workable answer............ waiting...........
Last edited by GHung on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 17:28:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby careinke » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 17:25:17

GHung wrote:
careinke wrote:
GHung wrote:
careinke wrote:All taxes are theft. That said, give Cesar his due, the empire has way more force than you do.


If taxes are theft, then utilizing government services provided by taxes, any at all, without paying taxes, is theft. Maybe we need a list of government services paid for with taxes that anti-tax monkeys couldn't do so well without.


So, if I come into your house with a gun and take your money. Then take the money and give it to your neighbors, it's not theft? Heck, I may even use some of the money to paint your driveway. Isn't it still theft?


Again, you guys conveniently skipped the gist of my comment regarding the taxpayer funded services you all use. Get back to me when you utilize no government services at all. You also skipped the part where I said the system is bloated and broken, but none of you is offering any alternatives. I'm listening......

O_S said; "But today, to clearly call taxation theft (as it is, at least to some extent) is the height of political incorrectness, and also hurts certain peoples' feelings."

If you were referring to me, you are totally off the mark, again. I don't do PC and don't get my feelings hurt, especially by the likes of people here. Again, when you can say that you do not benefit from any tax-funded government services, get back to me. Can you say that? Any of you? It's a simple question. What's the matter, McFly.....?

Come talk to me when I, as an individual, get to decide directly where my stolen money gets to be spent. And please, don't say we do that through our elections. Those psychopath's have already been bought.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 17:31:58

One more time, careinke, what's your plan? It's easy to point out flaws in a system and not offer any solutions. I'm beginning to grok that some of YOU are the ones that want a free ride.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 17:52:53

careinke wrote:O_S said; "But today, to clearly call taxation theft (as it is, at least to some extent) is the height of political incorrectness, and also hurts certain peoples' feelings."

If you were referring to me, you are totally off the mark, again. I don't do PC and don't get my feelings hurt, especially by the likes of people here. Again, when you can say that you do not benefit from any tax-funded government services, get back to me.

I was most definitely NOT referring to you. Sorry if you took it that way, as it was not intended. I'm talking about the conversation about taxes generally, as I've seen it go for quite a few years overall.

As to taxes vs. government services, the top tenth or so, and especially the top 1% that liberals tend to complain about so much generally pay a LOT of taxes, compared to the government services used, so to me that argument is a non-starter when liberals complain that no matter how much the top end pays, it's never close to being enough. And as someone in the top 10%, I've consistently paid in a lot compared to how much I used, since my first full time job post college graduation.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 18:39:22

Just chiming in- Ghung is right. Unless you are living out of your yard produce, not going anywhere except hiking on non government funded trails, basically not existing in the modern world, you are benefitted by tax funding. Even then, who stops your Ozark wilderness retreat being overrun by apocalyptic zombies? Or Russians? He is agreeing the system is a mess, asking for better ideas. None forthcoming.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 19:33:59

SeaGypsy wrote:Just chiming in- Ghung is right. Unless you are living out of your yard produce, not going anywhere except hiking on non government funded trails, basically not existing in the modern world, you are benefitted by tax funding. Even then, who stops your Ozark wilderness retreat being overrun by apocalyptic zombies? Or Russians? He is agreeing the system is a mess, asking for better ideas. None forthcoming.

These anti-tax morons are also the peak-oil deniers. They want private roads (that truckers can't afford), private waste collection (and we will all swim in somebody's shit), private medical care (the dead bodies will be served by rabies-infected dogs) private libraries, private internet, private space program (Musk will rule the Universe) And then the God Above will reign down love and petroleum on our sorry asses.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby careinke » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 19:37:11

GHung wrote:One more time, careinke, what's your plan? It's easy to point out flaws in a system and not offer any solutions. I'm beginning to grok that some of YOU are the ones that want a free ride.


My plan for what? How to pay for the US government? How to eliminate taxes everywhere? For arguments sake, I'll assume you are asking how to eliminate taxes in the US, yet not getting rid of the services we all use. I'm sure with a little outside the box thinking we could come up with lots of answers.

How about this scenario:

FEDCOIN!!!! ALL taxes are immediately revoked, the budget is temporarily frozen, and all government payments are made in FEDCOIN which is temporarily pegged to Federal Reserve Notes. FEDCOIN will be a legal tender for all debts. The Federal government will only accept FEDCOIN as payment for any monies due them.

Since FEDCOIN is on a block chain, and can not be counterfeited, you have to have a FEDCOIN to loan a FEDCOIN.

Our bonds would be paid off when due, in FEDCOIN, and we would not issue anymore govt bonds.

If we wanted we could pay every US citizen a living stipend in FEDCOIN including minors (released to them at adulthood) and eliminate most welfare, social security etc.

Eventually citizens should be able to allocate their percentage of the budget to govt programs they agree with and with hold money from programs they are against.

Just a quick idea/plan.

This will eventually happen anyway, only with a lot more mess.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:50:01

Whenever I encounter a road blocked off so that a private entity can get something done, like construct a building, I think about the issue of taxes and fees. I think private entities should have to pay a fee in order to block off parking spaces or narrow down lanes to the public's inconvenience. Not egregious fees. I don't have to see the money. It is enough that it goes into some kind of public account.

Where people go wrong is in assuming that they should be able to put their hands on the money when the inconvenience is for all. No, I don't believe in trying to make some kind of local use of the money either, excluding those who obviously don't live near where the project is built. We can't be counted as members of society in ways that single us out and still expect our standing as citizens to even things out. Sure, there is a lot of gray area if you do, but also room for the machinations of politics. Politics always works in someone's interest. It can try to hide behind the status of those it shills for, as citizens, but we actually ought to root it out when we see it, as a partisan game. It's not that it's a terrible thing, the game, just that it's players ought to be known.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:34:44

careinke wrote:How about this scenario:

FEDCOIN!!!! ALL taxes are immediately revoked, the budget is temporarily frozen, and all government payments are made in FEDCOIN which is temporarily pegged to Federal Reserve Notes. FEDCOIN will be a legal tender for all debts. The Federal government will only accept FEDCOIN as payment for any monies due them.

How does changing what we call the dollar and making it electronic and on a block chain change anything fundamental about available, wealth, resources, or the ability to solve problems?

Are you implying they just make FEDCOIN and start spending it without collecting more taxes?

If that's the case, inventing more free money sounds wildly irresponsible, given what's transpired in the past decade.

By the way, if taxes are revoked, it's not clear to me where the money comes from. Mining Fedcoin? Because if that's the plan, I don't think governements can arbitrarily manufacture wealth out of thin air and remain credible for long. I'm pretty sure the current Venezuela situation is an indication of where such schemes will lead.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:56:24

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
careinke wrote:How about this scenario:

FEDCOIN!!!! ALL taxes are immediately revoked, the budget is temporarily frozen, and all government payments are made in FEDCOIN which is temporarily pegged to Federal Reserve Notes. FEDCOIN will be a legal tender for all debts. The Federal government will only accept FEDCOIN as payment for any monies due them.

How does changing what we call the dollar and making it electronic and on a block chain change anything fundamental about available, wealth, resources, or the ability to solve problems?

Are you implying they just make FEDCOIN and start spending it without collecting more taxes?

If that's the case, inventing more free money sounds wildly irresponsible, given what's transpired in the past decade.

By the way, if taxes are revoked, it's not clear to me where the money comes from. Mining Fedcoin? Because if that's the plan, I don't think governements can arbitrarily manufacture wealth out of thin air and remain credible for long. I'm pretty sure the current Venezuela situation is an indication of where such schemes will lead.


For what it's worth, Kunstler this morning:

I wonder what sort of dark schemes are being hatched to cold-cock the public with a so-called “cashless society” regime. That’s only one move that could provoke real civil violence, and understandably so, because there’s no greater threat to liberty than the government electronically tracking your every transaction.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 15:58:24

EvilG, I'm not up to date on the nitty gritty of US local government laws, but I'm pretty sure if you ask anyone in the building game they do have to pay substantial fees to block up public space. We certainly do in Australia.
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