[Smurfs1976]

http://www.examiner.com.au/story/278650 ... lpg/?cs=95

It's just a small town in Tasmania (Australia) but I think this may be a sign of things to come. The last remaining automotive LPG supplier is pulling out of the town, leaving them without LPG supply. The article says some other towns are also losing it but doesn't way which ones.

LPG was once a fairly popular vehicle fuel in Australia, most taxis used it and many other petrol engine vehicles were also converted to LPG during the boom years of that industry. A great narrowing of the gap between LPG and petrol prices plus an end to government subsidies for vehicle conversion seem to be killing demand, so it was only a matter of time until suppliers started removing the pumps at service stations.

Note about terminology since most people on this site seem to be in the USA. LPG = what you call "propane" (though it's actually a mix if propane and butane gases when sold for vehicle fuel here). Petrol = what you call "gasoline".

[SeaGypsy]

The regulars here all know the difference. Any industry knowledge of LPG propane would have shown the abundance of this byproduct of light sweet Bass Straight crude was never going to last. Australia being well past peak of this kind of oil at the same time as it has become the primary cooking fuel for half the world population, it is obvious the subsidized conversions were pretty much a waste of money. The fact most people don't understand the difference between LPG which is always adjunct to oil, & NG which can exist in a wide array of environments & constituents, probably explains much of the sucker market.

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . I could be wrong but in Queensland many towns never had it.

You had to be in a major city to find an outlet, I think it was pretty difficult to drive between the border and Cairns on LPG.

Cheers.

[Shaved Monkey]

Our little town doesnt have it but the small station out of town half an hour does.(its on a cross road)
The closest regional town all have it.
I drove to Cairns last year most of the regional stations had it
There was plenty of ethanol in the sugar cane areas
Lots of people in the country have diesel though (I dont)
Most LPG cars can run on duel fuel so can fill up with petrol if they cant find LPG (all the LPG cars Ive owned had both)


NRMA commissioned a report of Australian fuel security one of their recommendations was to run transport on LPG/LNG
.

....in February 2014, the nation’s dependence on imported fuel had increased to 91 per cent
Blackburn suggests a target – 30 per cent of our overall oil supply – that is completely secure.

This target can be met by a combination of strategies on the demand and supply sides – fuel efficiency standards, mandatory fleet fuel targets, better public transport – but a big factor, comprising two-thirds of the target, would be Australian-sourced petroleum-alternative fuels: biofuels, gas (LPG, LNG and CNG) gas-to-liquid fuels and coal-to-liquid fuels.

https://independentaustralia.net/enviro ... -fuel,7171

[Paulo1]

It has always been hard to find propane for auto fuel in NA as well. I had a friend who had to pick up an engine in LA. He had a hell of a time getting back to Canada. Plus, here where it is cold it is a poor fuel choice for transport. In construction we would put big heaters on the pigs (tanks) to get the gas flowing. Bottom 1/3 of tanks froze. My Dad told me in Minnesota people would build fires under their tanks in winter.

I can see where this would be phasing out in hot and cold countries if anything else were available, despite what Warren Buffet touts.

[toolpush]

With the demise of the "Australian Family Six", Falcon and Commodore, the main users of LPG and the shrinking differential of LPG to Petrol (gas) price, the future of LPG was always in trouble. The Taxi fleet, the holly grail of LPG, are moving to hybrids, as the fleet of Falcons disappear, Ironically increasing the Australia's oil usage.
It is funny how we export LPG to Asia, from the North West and import LPG from the Middle East, but that is our world of economics these days.
I am sure, the decline of LPG start as a trickle, with a few country towns, but by the time Ford and Holden finally shut down, even the cities will follow suit.

[SeaGypsy]

Yep, Australia is a long way from self sufficient in any fossil fuels other than NG & coal. Our internal supply of LPG is diminishing not increasing so the noise that it is going to become more important to transport flies in the face of logic.

[toolpush]

SeaGypsy,

I am sure if Woodside stripped out the propane from the LNG they ship over seas we would have way more propane that we could ever use, but that will never happen due to contracts and the location of our natural gas reserves. The the other source of Propane/butane was oil refineries. As we have to chosen to shut down as many refineries we can, than all refined products including the so called by products of propane and butane have to replaced by direct imports.

"so the noise that it is going to become more important to transport flies in the face of logic"

I was not aware of any current noise on using LPG as a transport fuel. The noise I hear at the moment for replacement fuels has been for Nat Gas to replace diesel in long haul trucks. Westfarmers have been doing it fr quite a few years, Shell made some grand announcements about a heap of LNG supply on the Hume Hwy. I am not sure if that went through. AGL has also started talking about selling Nat gas for transport, not sure how all these projects will work out if Nat gas goes up to $10 mcf as predicted.

[SeaGypsy]

Who said there is any significant propane embedded in Woodside's NG? There isn't so I have no idea where that idea comes from. The noise I was referring to is in Shaved's link etc. Also your post indicates no understanding the difference between LNG & LPG in terms of transport fuel. One can run most standard petrol engines, the other requires bore & stroke dimensions not seen in any modern mass produced engine. The storage of one is many times higher pressure than the other & many times more likely to explode.

[toolpush]

SeaGypsy,

Yes I do know the difference between LPG,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

In Australia, the auto gas, is a mix of propane and Butane, but the BBQ or household gas is pure propane. Strange how by adding butane and Propane, where Butane has a higher heating value the price of Auto gas is much less than household bottled propane? But that is modern day marketing for you.

and LNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas

LNG for transport

http://www.kleenheat.com.au/gas/product ... EVOL%20LNG

http://www.cumminswestport.com/models/isx12-g
http://www.kenworth.com.au/fileadmin/si ... utions.pdf

AGL, are looking at CNG for trucks
http://www.agl.com.au/~/media/AGL/Busin ... ralian.pdf

It looks like Shell pulled out on their plans, but BOC is continuing. I think BOC are tied up with Linde some how but not sure.
http://www.fullyloaded.com.au/news/indu ... ithdrawal/

I must admit you were correct about Woodside. They don't ship propane with the Lng, they actually strip it out and ship it separately. Which would make it even easier to transport to the rest of Australia if they wanted. The LNG that Woodside ships just contains liquid Methane and Ethane.
http://www.hydrocarbons-technology.com/ ... rrathalng/
They ship about 25,000 per quarter by the looks of this report.
http://www.woodside.com.au/Investors-Me ... Report.pdf

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ ... ive/petrol
"Australian LPG production and trade
Australia produced 4,367 megalitres (ML) of naturally occurring LPG and 1,674.4 ML of refinery produced LPG in 1999–2000. In the same year, Australia exported 2,858.9 ML and imported 518.9 ML of LPG."


Australian sales of LPG in 1999–2000, amounted to 3,603.6 ML of which 1,902.9 ML was for automotive use. Whilst, it is apparent that Australia is more than self sufficient in LPG supplies, Australia is also a substantial exporter of LPG and also an importer."

I am not sure why you are concerned about bore and stroke when it comes to burning a gassious fuel? Compression and spark are the important parameters. Just as Propane has a higher anti knock valve than petrol, so does Methane, and whether it is LNG or CNG is of no concern to the engine as all the liquids are evaporated to gas before it gets to the engine. All the gassious engines run spark ignition, rather than compression ignition as for a diesel engine.


Now what were you saying about LPG? I think you need to do a little reading.

[SeaGypsy]

Bullshit mate. NG requires a long stroke. Nobody makes auto engines with a long stroke since about the 1970's. The time period you quote was the peak of LPG in Australia because of Bass Straight, which is now well past peak.

[toolpush]

I gave you a well referenced reply backing up every point I made, I expect the same into return.

If you read the references I supplied the Cummin ISX 12l engine in in current production. The Woodside quarterly report was from Sep 2014, 25k ton per quarter, 100k ton per year. And Australia uses how much LPG for transport per year? you tell me.

As for long stroke, please show references backing up your argument. There are many countries that use CNG for cars as well.

[toolpush]

Correction: Some of the larger truck engines are compression ignition, though the Cummin 12G is spark ignition. The compression ignition engines use a squirt of diesel to fire them.

[SeaGypsy]

Irrelavent, no standard modern engine, diesel or petrol or LPG specific, or combination LPG diesel, none will run anything like properly on NG. Meanwhile planning for more LPG use when we are already importing about half of what we use, makes no sense, especially given emerging competition for this resource. Planning for NG vehicles is basically about fleet renewal, not retrofitting. Is it worth pushing our fleet into NG? Perhaps, but that is a multi decade project which would require hugely unpopular new laws. Pie in the sky.

[Tanada]

In the USA it is quite common for small auto engines to be converted for use as home/business standby electric generators burning natural gas from standard service lines. The conversion process does nothing to increase the stroke length or compression ratio of the engines, they just install fuel regulators and new computer chips to control mixture ratio's.

Where does this idea that standard engines can not burn methane without extensive modifications come from? Honda motors offers a CNG version of the Civic auto here in the USA with an engine modified in the same way as those converted to run electric generator systems, their website gives the same bore size, stroke length and compression ratio for both the gasoline and CNG versions of the engine.

[toolpush]

SeaGypsy,

I am sorry I am lost as to who or what you are arguing with and about. I agree, LPG is going down. LNG is being pushed, but price of Nat Gas will cause problems.
Nat gas has potential, and is being used for semis, I feel you are talking car engines.
Can't understand your point of long stroke? Total fuel consumption of the vehicle will be a more telling point. Hardly worthwhile converting something that doesn't use much fuel and LPG will have a hard time competing against direct fuel injection.
As to your "combination LPG diesel", I would love to see an example, as I do not believe I have ever heard of one. I believe you accuse me of not know the difference in LPG and LNG. I feel, I could come to the same conclusions about yourself.
And last if not least, Australia does produce and will continue to produce more LPG then we use. It is just not produced where we would like it.
http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/wopapub/s ... c_pdf.ashx

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . toolpush

http://www.dieselgasconnection.com.au/ There you go,

I see a few around central Queensland, there are several mobs out there doing conversions . . . they seem to go okay.

It is a proven technology but I don't now why I'd bother. I can get better than 11 kays per litre out of my Mazda T/A diesel and I would have to do a lot of kays to justify the cost and added complexity

Cheers.

[Tanada]

toolpush I think he is referring to these, http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/

You can modify any turbocharged diesel engine to inject propane into the air manifold where it mixes with the intake air and is compressed into the cylinder. At full compression the modified fuel controller injects a small quantity of Diesel fuel into the compressed mix as an ignition source causing the propane air mixture to burn producing most of the power for the engine. In places like the USA where propane is relatively cheap and diesel is relatively expensive you can get a reasonable cost savings for the added complexity of having two fuels systems operating at the same time and needing two fuel supplies.

For some of the conversions the engine runs poorly if it runs out of propane and not at all if it runs out of diesel fuel. In some of the conversions I researched years ago the Propane only replaces about 20% of the diesel but if the propane runs out the computer increases the diesel fuel to compensate so you do not lose power on diesel alone.

Because Propane has a very high octane rating (knock factor) there are even some who have converted high compression diesel engines into spark ignition engines burning straight Propane, but that involves extensive mechanical work to do so is much more rare. I used to drive past a large Propane distribution facility while commuting, all of their delivery trucks were duel fueled to take advantage of the low cost they paid for Propane because it has no road taxes attached too it like regular fuels do. They would fill up with road fuel every third fill up or so just to prove they were still paying road taxes at the end of the year.

[SeaGypsy]

OK Tanada, things may have come a long way as you suggest, but in terms of retrofit, do you know what the technical minimum is for the cars you mention, how realistic is broad scale retrofitting? What do commercially acceptable solutions for various vehicles actually cost & what scale of economic volume needs to get happening to make the process much the same as getting an LPG conversion? Here that runs at $2-3k for most vehicles.

Tool, I'm not interested in LPG, an expensive byproduct of very high utility for cooking in the developing world, where it often sells for near a dollar a litre to people who earn $2 a day. Let them have it. NG very different story, for 2 reasons, there is still a lot of it & the tech is virtually the same as biogas burners, probably the simplest post oil fuel to produce, from the broadest array of inputs.

[Tanada]

OK Tanada, things may have come a long way as you suggest, but in terms of retrofit, do you know what the technical minimum is for the cars you mention, how realistic is broad scale retrofitting? What do commercially acceptable solutions for various vehicles actually cost & what scale of economic volume needs to get happening to make the process much the same as getting an LPG conversion? Here that runs at $2-3k for most vehicles.

For retrofits you are correct, many US states have laws and/or regulations that make it a hassle to do a conversion and that increases costs to the point where you will never get back the money invested in fuel cost savings. New built cars and trucks designed to run on CNG is a whole different prospect in comparison.

A decade ago there was a push to have CNG cars with home installed compressors to refuel them over night but a couple well publicized fires caused many communities and states to make home fill stations illegal. Here in Ohio there is only one public CNG fill station about every 50 miles, I happen to live about 6 miles from the local one. It is something like the chicken or the egg problem, nearly all gasoline/diesel filling stations in this region use natural gas for heating. This makes adding a CNG filling station very easy, they hook a compressor and storage tank too the natural gas feed line and they can start selling CNG within an hour or so of the unit being installed. The problem is nobody is wanting to invest $20,000.00 for a CNG fill station if there are no CNG vehicles coming around looking to buy fuel, and nobody wants to buy a CNG vehicle if there are no convenient pumps around to fill up their tank.

What we have right now in the USA are major disincentives to buying a CNG fueled car/truck, on the one hand filling stations are few and far between, on the other hand in many places filling up at home is illegal. If you wanted to design a system to discourage CNG use you would be hard pressed to do a better job than that without outright ban of their use.

Not sure if that covers your question about the technical minimum or not? Here is a link to the current CNG Honda Civic specifications, http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natu ... tions.aspx

Here is the link to the standard current Honda Civic, http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-seda ... tions.aspx

You can see the CNG version has a higher compression ratio because CNG is much higher octane rating than regular unleaded gasoline, so they increased compression to take advantage of that fact. The cylinder bore and stroke is identical between the two engines so they use some alternative method to increase the compression ratio. I suspect the CNG is injected at the bottom of the intake stroke after the valves are closed but I didn't bother looking into the details to confirm, I didn't get much sleep and I am kind of cranky at the moment.