Arizona's New Immigration Law

[Sixstrings]

Fundamentally, immigration is not within the state's jurisdiction.

They aren't claiming it is.

Well, that will be decided in federal court. But I sympathize, by the way. Immigration, both illegal and legal, does nothing but put Americans out of work (along with outsourcing via globalism, insourcing via immigration is just as destructive). Now if an immigrant comes here on an investor visa, and he's literally got a big chunk of money to start a new business with then that's a good thing. But when immigrants come over penniless with the intent of just sending their wages back home to Mexico, or Microsoft hires an H1B visa Indian just because he's cheaper than an American, then that's bad for the economy (unless you're the business owner profiting off cheap labor, then for you it's good).

Bottom line, unemployment is just way too high right now -- immigration needs to be stopped cold, both legal and illegal. UNLESS they're coming over with enough money to start a business. Otherwise, immigrants just take Americans' jobs and / or depress wages for everyone. Keep in mind, if we had a labor shortage like in decades past then of course immigration would make sense. It's just craziness given our current levels of unemployment.

Getting back to Arizona.. you guys are stuck between a rock and a hard place. TPTB have no intention of slowing down illegal immigration from Mexico. At best, you guys will force them to grant amnesty or start up a guest worker program.

As for the fairness of the law, as anti-immigration as I am, I actually don't like the idea of someone getting extra scrutiny just because he looks hispanic. Just imagine if you were a latino US citizen -- think about how insulted you would feel if some cop asked for proof of your citizenship. Proof of being licensed to drive is one thing, but having to show papers because your skin is dark is something else.

The other issue here is that it really is bad for law enforcement. The local cops are supposed to be handling robberies, violent crimes, petty theft / fraud and the like. Now how are you going to investigate crimes if a big portion of your population is terrified to talk to you? On the other hand, I can understand you guys must be really nervous about the drug war violence spilling over from Mexico to the US. So I can see why this law was passed, what else can you do when the federal government wants the open border to continue? Democrats want the votes, and fat cat Republicans want the cheap Mexican labor -- that's why nothing will ever get done about this.

[Fiddlerdave]

This example of Arizona trying something to fix a problem that shouldn't exist is silly and expensive.

The police will ask for proof of citizenship or legal immigration or work status, and are supposed to take a DL, or other paperwork as "proof" and then let them go.

Of our current 11 million illegals, the majority are working for employers who, by law, should already have done exactly that!

I think a better law would be to require the police to find the EMPLOYER of any illegals they find in these day to day operations, and then arrest the AMERICAN EMPLOYERS of the illegals.

This would be vastly more effective, and produce almost immediate results, as companies would take a much more heightened interest in the quality or existence of prospective employee paperwork. I would have thought that already, someone willing to be working for half of minimum wage, or not wanting overtime pay, or being disinterested in safety, would have clued these employers that perhaps their employees were not legal workers, but watching a few of their golf buddies do perp walks for hiring illegals would bring about illegal immigration reduction mighty quick when the illegals went back home jobless.

As for the employers, like meat-packing plants, who regularly hire coyotes and buses to bring the illegals from Mexico directly to work, why these people, managers and owners alike, are NOT behind bars is quite puzzling. (NOT!)

[deMolay]

Ask yourself what was the initial reason for the creation of first city states and then National governments. Nations were brought into existance to protect its citizens as job number one. Washington by law claims that as their responsibility. When they fail to take up their responsibility it then falls to the state to protect its citizens. Washington's failure to fulfill its obligation first to it's legal citizens is promoting anarchy. Should the state of Arizona wait until the legal citizens arm themselves and start defending themselves openly? That could be the end result.

[Ayoob]

Frankly, this is the kinder and gentler way to deal with illegal immigration. Prison, deportation, and discrimination is by far the kinder and gentler way when compared with the Trail of Tears that will surely precede the dieoff.

I would MUCH prefer to be marched off into the desert with a skin full of water over being shot in the back of the head outside of a food stamp office. Can you imagine the white hot rage when native Americans (I'm not talking about the stone age savages who never smelted iron or harvested the benefits of the wheel and axle) will feel when their tax dollars are spent feeding those who do not belong here, while their own children cry for milk?

Everyone will be happier with simply separating rather than the actual slaughter of tens of millions of people.

The dieoff is coming. It IS coming. Human population is going to decrease due to an inability to provide food. This is not a test, this is the real thing. When it comes, and it will, how do you think illegal aliens will be treated? Will they simply be the new niggers, subjected to horrible working conditions without legal protection... or will they be ground to dust by the wheels of indifference? And how will the detritus of that situation react?

It's MUCH BETTER and MUCH KINDER to simply separate and fend for ourselves rather than anything else. I'm right, it's just that the pressure hasn't built enough yet. Wait and see. It is better to build the wall and man it with horrible weapons of war than it is to wait for armed citizens to defend their territory mano e mano.

I believe the wastelands of Southern California will be given to Mexico en bloc. No great loss, if you ask me. The great State of California will be split into Northern and Southern California, and the lines will be redrawn to reflect demographic destiny. The water will be cut off, and that will change things again.

Mexico is not a horrible place. It's perfectly fine. Mexicans should be more than happy in Mexico.

Bless their hearts.

But not here. They will go home and be happy there.

Consider for a moment plan B. Imagine a lake somewhere in Wisconsin. Imagine three groups of people on the lake, each fishing for their dinner. One group has owned a cabin on the lakefront for three generations, and has fished that lake for a hundred years. They throw the small fish back. Another group, this one Hmong, keeps the small fish to eat because they are hungry. The third group is the illegals. They run five times as many boats as both of the other groups combined, and eat all the fish they catch. Why not? There is no reason to husband their resources, they will simply move on to the next lake when this one runs out of fish.

Who gets shot first? Who gets shot second? Who winds up with the lake in the end? Dieoff determines strategy.

[Fishman]

Oh darn, now Mass. has passed a stringent anti illegal alien bill. Shucks, looks like this might spread, what with 70% of the population agreeing with Arizona.

[MonteQuest]

As for the fairness of the law, as anti-immigration as I am, I actually don't like the idea of someone getting extra scrutiny just because he looks hispanic. Just imagine if you were a latino US citizen -- think about how insulted you would feel if some cop asked for proof of your citizenship. Proof of being licensed to drive is one thing, but having to show papers because your skin is dark is something else.

This is at the root of much of the controversy about this law.

What you just wrote is a complete media myth.

Nothing in this law targets any race, nor allows any race to be extra scrutinized.

As I have posted already.

They may not consider race, color, or national origin as reasonable suspicion.

They can't pull you over for "driving while brown" and ask for "papers".

Part of this law makes it a crime to racially profile. In fact, it is the first law to ever make racial profiling a crime.

From the text of the law itself:

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT CONSIDER
RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION EXCEPT TO
THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

[MonteQuest]

Oh darn, now Mass. has passed a stringent anti illegal alien bill. Shucks, looks like this might spread, what with 70% of the population agreeing with Arizona.

18 states are considering a law similar to AZ.

[ColossalContrarian]

I thought about Arizona's law a little more and I'm not sure what the difference is between having it and not having it?

If someone is pulled over Police officers always asks for identification anyway and if person doesn't produce it they get a ticket anyway. I can see how this might be different because the person is an immigrant and that might allow the police officer to take them to jail but I don't understand how much different this is than in the past.

It would be like if the police officer gets your ID and runs a check on you and finds a warrant out for your arrest.

Can someone spell out in non Lawyer terms what happens when someone is arrested and they don't have ID? Then what happens if LEO can prove the person is an immigrant?

I'm thinking this law would be useful for people who are debtors or don't pay child support ect but I don't understand what tool the law provides for LEO to help them do their job.

I think ICE and Border patrol are important too. Where I live there was an ICE raid on a Swift plant that cought about 300 people. They were deported but I want to know what happens to the person who employed the immigrants.

[MonteQuest]

I thought about Arizona's law a little more and I'm not sure what the difference is between having it and not having it?

It allows AZ LEO to do the job that the Feds are not doing with regard to enforcing immigration law. It allows AZ to fine and jail violators of Federal and AZ law for trespassing.

If someone is pulled over Police officers always asks for identification anyway and if person doesn't produce it they get a ticket anyway. I can see how this might be different because the person is an immigrant and that might allow the police officer to take them to jail but I don't understand how much different this is than in the past.

AZ requires the DL to have been obtained by showing proof of citizenship. Not all states require it.

Can someone spell out in non Lawyer terms what happens when someone is arrested and they don't have ID?

First they run a check in the system based upon name, DOB, SSN, etc. Your history will come up. If not, then they fingerprint you. No record on file? Perhaps you are an illegal.

Then what happens if LEO can prove the person is an immigrant?

Often they are just turned over to ICE.

[Sixstrings]

This is at the root of much of the controversy about this law.

What you just wrote is a complete media myth.

Nothing in this law targets any race, nor allows any race to be extra scrutinized.

But Monte, that doesn't make any sense. It's like passing a law saying employers can consider pregnancy status when hiring new employees, but then saying it's not discrimination because employers can't consider gender. The two go hand in hand, a pregnant person is always a woman.

Same thing in this situation.. who the heck do you think is running around Arizona without papers Monte? Norwegians? Swedes? French Canadians? No, you me and everybody else knows it's dark skinned latinos who don't have papers. Ok, so let's assume race really won't be used as probable cause to ask for papers -- then how the heck else would you know who to ask? I guess you'd have to go by accent, but then there you go again that's the same as racial profiling. Plenty of US citizens have accents.

First they run a check in the system based upon name, DOB, SSN, etc. Your history will come up. If not, then they fingerprint you. No record on file? Perhaps you are an illegal.

Well, that makes some sense. The only problem is that I sort of like the antiquated idea that in this country you're not required by law to have any "papers" in the first place. All of us do of course, since even if we don't drive we need a state ID to get on a plane or cash a check or get a job.

But I know that's a technicality, the reality is that by default we do have a "national ID" now and every one of us must carry our papers at all times. But all in all Monte, I just don't want to live in a police state. This is why even Tom Tancredo is against the Arizona law. It's just a bad road to head down.

A better solution would be to crack down on the employers of illegal immigrants. But Arizona won't do that now will they? Also, there's nothing stopping Arizona from funding a state militia to patrol the border. That would make more sense, if you see somebody running over from Mexico then that's obviously probable cause. Just being brown skinned in Phoenix should not be probable cause.

What all this is coming down to is a guest worker program. The immigration from Mexico ain't gonna stop, TPTB want it to continue and so it will. But because of the national ID act, they're going to have to finally do the guest worker thing so that every one of us will have our appropriate "papers."

[Serial_Worrier]

Enforcing the law will hurt cops? First time I've heard that suggestion.

Didn't you get the memo? LEO are not in the law-enforcement business anymore. They're glorified social workers.

[americandream]

Better still, operate a foreign policy that does not see these Latin American countries run by friendly but incompetent despots.

This is at the root of much of the controversy about this law.

What you just wrote is a complete media myth.

Nothing in this law targets any race, nor allows any race to be extra scrutinized.

But Monte, that doesn't make any sense. It's like passing a law saying employers can consider pregnancy status when hiring new employees, but then saying it's not discrimination because employers can't consider gender. The two go hand in hand, a pregnant person is always a woman.

Same thing in this situation.. who the heck do you think is running around Arizona without papers Monte? Norwegians? Swedes? French Canadians? No, you me and everybody else knows it's dark skinned latinos who don't have papers. Ok, so let's assume race really won't be used as probable cause to ask for papers -- then how the heck else would you know who to ask? I guess you'd have to go by accent, but then there you go again that's the same as racial profiling. Plenty of US citizens have accents.

First they run a check in the system based upon name, DOB, SSN, etc. Your history will come up. If not, then they fingerprint you. No record on file? Perhaps you are an illegal.

Well, that makes some sense. The only problem is that I sort of like the antiquated idea that in this country you're not required by law to have any "papers" in the first place. All of us do of course, since even if we don't drive we need a state ID to get on a plane or cash a check or get a job.

But I know that's a technicality, the reality is that by default we do have a "national ID" now and every one of us must carry our papers at all times. But all in all Monte, I just don't want to live in a police state. This is why even Tom Tancredo is against the Arizona law. It's just a bad road to head down.

A better solution would be to crack down on the employers of illegal immigrants. But Arizona won't do that now will they? Also, there's nothing stopping Arizona from funding a state militia to patrol the border. That would make more sense, if you see somebody running over from Mexico then that's obviously probable cause. Just being brown skinned in Phoenix should not be probable cause.

What all this is coming down to is a guest worker program. The immigration from Mexico ain't gonna stop, TPTB want it to continue and so it will. But because of the national ID act, they're going to have to finally do the guest worker thing so that every one of us will have our appropriate "papers."

[dinopello]

This law doesn't seem to be all that extreme, but some are worried that this law is the start of a trend of local law enforcement being given authority to engage in extrajurisdictional activities. For example, why stop at asking suspected illegals for papers during an unrelated traffic infraction? Federal Tax evasion is a very costly problem, should a local law enforcement officer who suspects someone for hiding income be able to ask for the tax returns and initiate an IRS audit ? That would either catch a lot of tax cheats or it would mean tax cheats would drive really carefully I think.

[americandream]

It's bizarre but Libertarians seem gung ho over these legislative initiatives.

I guess laws that regulate business are bad but ones that impact on our personal freedom, perhaps, are good. Who knows.

Interesting question here following Rand Paul's logic. Would it be excessive for a policeman to enforce this law on the premises of an illegals business seeing as private property is sacrosanct?

This law doesn't seem to be all that extreme, but some are worried that this law is the start of a trend of local law enforcement being given authority to engage in extrajurisdictional activities. For example, why stop at asking suspected illegals for papers during an unrelated traffic infraction? Federal Tax evasion is a very costly problem, should a local law enforcement officer who suspects someone for hiding income be able to ask for the tax returns and initiate an IRS audit ? That would either catch a lot of tax cheats or it would mean tax cheats would drive really carefully I think.

[Sixstrings]

For example, why stop at asking suspected illegals for papers during an unrelated traffic infraction? Federal Tax evasion is a very costly problem, should a local law enforcement officer who suspects someone for hiding income be able to ask for the tax returns and initiate an IRS audit ? That would either catch a lot of tax cheats or it would mean tax cheats would drive really carefully I think.

And, think about those DUI checkpoints. Once local cops get jurisdiction for everything else, now all of the sudden what was intended to curb drunk driving turns into an all-around police state checkpoint: papers please, drivers license please, registration, proof of insurance, blow into this tube and if you don't it's admitting guilt, oh I see you owe child support and the IRS..

Nothing to be done though, we're headed for a police state that's for sure. You can count on it, just because technology makes it so easy.

[MonteQuest]

Nothing in this law targets any race, nor allows any race to be extra scrutinized.

But Monte, that doesn't make any sense. It's like passing a law saying employers can consider pregnancy status when hiring new employees, but then saying it's not discrimination because employers can't consider gender. The two go hand in hand, a pregnant person is always a woman.

Same thing in this situation.. who the heck do you think is running around Arizona without papers Monte?

95% of illegals in Arizona are hispanics, mainly from Mexico and Guatemala. That is just a fact. The Supreme Court has ruled that as long as you stay under that 95% with regards to enforcement, it isn't profiling.

No, you me and everybody else knows it's dark skinned latinos who don't have papers. Ok, so let's assume race really won't be used as probable cause to ask for papers -- then how the heck else would you know who to ask?

Let's get the terms right, it is "reasonable suspicion" to ask about legal status, not probable cause.

What is reasonable suspicion to ask for papers? I listed them in my first post.

No ID, or record of an ID in the system.

No SSN.

Outstanding warrant from ICE.

Running.

Refusal to answer questions and being evasive.

Freely admitting you are here illegally.

Voices coming from your trunk or under the floor boards of your pickup or SUV.

The only problem is that I sort of like the antiquated idea that in this country you're not required by law to have any "papers" in the first place.

Citizens are still not required; only legal immigrants. What you are required to do, is provide a valid ID when you exhibit "reasonable suspicion" that you are here illegally. As it is for "reasonable suspicion" of any crime. Terry v Ohio. Case law. Nothing new here, move along.

But I know that's a technicality, the reality is that by default we do have a "national ID" now and every one of us must carry our papers at all times. But all in all Monte, I just don't want to live in a police state.

Is it a police state when ICE asks for proof of citizenship when they encounter reasonable suspicion that someone is here illegally? No. What is the difference?

A better solution would be to crack down on the employers of illegal immigrants. But Arizona won't do that now will they?

No? We passed a law in AZ in 2008 making it a crime for businesses to hire illegals. They take your license and close your doors.

Just being brown skinned in Phoenix should not be probable cause.

It isn't, hasn't been, and never will be. That is a media spun myth. Totally false.

You cannot be pulled over for "driving while brown'. It is a crime in AZ for a cop to do so. Only law that exists for it is here.

[MonteQuest]

This law doesn't seem to be all that extreme, but some are worried that this law is the start of a trend of local law enforcement being given authority to engage in extrajurisdictional activities. For example, why stop at asking suspected illegals for papers during an unrelated traffic infraction? Federal Tax evasion is a very costly problem, should a local law enforcement officer who suspects someone for hiding income be able to ask for the tax returns and initiate an IRS audit ?

No, but should a LEO who has reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred not contact the appropriate authorities who do have jurisdiction? As an NPS Ranger in Yellowstone, I passed on illegal aliens to ICE when I came across them.

[MonteQuest]

Nothing to be done though, we're headed for a police state that's for sure.

Yep. Bummer, dude!

What's the world coming to when you can't get away with rape, murder, DUI, driving without a license...at least once in a while. Sheesh!

The term police state describes a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.
The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement.

Whoa! A place where the police enforce laws against rape murder, DUI, tax evasion, etc isn't a police state? What was I thinking?

[Fiddlerdave]

No? We passed a law in AZ in 2008 making it a crime for businesses to hire illegals. They take your license and close your doors.

And a fine joke it was, too!!!

In Arizona's Santa Cruz County, the cities of Nogales, Ariz., and Nogales, Mexico, share more than a name.

"The two communities kind of melt together," said George Silva, the county attorney, who grew up in Arizona's Nogales.

So it's no surprise to Silva that the 2007 Legal Arizona Workers Act -- at the time the first state law in the nation to prohibit businesses from knowingly hiring illegal immigrants -- hasn't been a top priority for the county. Silva said he had received only a couple of inquiries about the law and his office had not prosecuted an employer.

As it turns out, Santa Cruz County is not alone.

Officials from 12 of the state's 15 counties said last week that they had not taken legal action against any businesses for failure to comply with the law. Officials in two counties -- Apache and Coconino -- could not be reached for comment.

Proponents of Arizona's tough laws against illegal immigrants say the lack of prosecutions is a sign of the law's success in deterring border crossers. Critics of the measure, which went into effect in 2008, say the law has only pushed illegal immigrants deeper underground in the workforce.

But wait!! Sheriff Joe will have gone after the businesses with vigor and his Marshal Dillon no-nonsense gusto to shut down the CAUSE of illegal aliens - the employers who will hire them!!

But some say the Sheriff has shirked arresting his friends and contributors - the businesses who hire these foreign villans and who they themselves are breaking their OWN US laws!! So, tell us it ain't so, Joe! You haven't been drinking the racist Koolaid, have you?

Before the newest anti-illegal-immigrant law was enacted, one county stood out in its effort to enforce the Legal Arizona Workers Act.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio and former County Atty. Andrew Thomas have boasted about their strict enforcement. After dozens of raids, complaints have been brought against three businesses. A sandwich shop was ordered to close for two days. A Phoenix water park was found to have violated the law, but it went out of business before the case was settled. A third case involving a furniture manufacturing company is still working its way through the court system.

Sighhh. I guess all the illegals in Arizona live on the money mommy sends them from Mexico!

[ColossalContrarian]

Nothing to be done though, we're headed for a police state that's for sure.

Yep. Bummer, dude!

What's the world coming to when you can't get away with rape, murder, DUI, driving without a license...at least once in a while. Sheesh!

You forgot steeling tax payer money and covering lies for too big to fail corporations that pollute our food.
Arizona is the last State to become a police state –maybe except for Nevada and California. Watch the pigs skewer each other as money runs out. They’ll find a reason to turn on each other just as they turned on those who supported their economy.