Are we ultimately doomed?

[Sixstrings]

Actually I got to thinking about the so called dark ages after you mentioned it Six, I only read a little on Wiki but the upshot seemed to be modern scholars don't seem to think they weren't necessarily that dark. I'd wager the church had a lot to do with the lack of popular history. And really, they were dark compared to what?

I don't intend to derail the thread into a history chat, just to say that when we talk about collapse we're talking about collapse of our civilization, and it's worth noting the West collapsed once before.

The Romans were surprisingly modern. They had apartments, businesses, law, lawyers, citizenship (as opposed to feudal subjects). Not to mention engineering.. hydro power, aquaducts, excellent roads. And culture, philosophy.. that was all mostly lost in the Dark Ages. People didn't even bathe in the Dark Ages as compared to Roman times.

In a Western Civ collapse redux, there could be a group that keeps the candle flame lit. I don't see it being our current fundamentalist churches though.. they're trying to take science out of the textbooks right now.

Without getting too far off topic, my point is that human knowledge is passed down generation to generation. If you get all hell breaking loose for a few generations, a lot WILL be lost. Printed books can preserve knowledge, but history shows in troubled times books get burned. Now factor in the digital age.. if the lights go out then there's no more Wikipedia to read up on about the Dark Ages..

[vision-master]

Have we bottomed out in the Kali Yuga age?

Kali Yuga : (Devanāgarī: कलियुग [kəli juɡə], lit. "age of (the male demon) Kali", or "age of vice") is the last of the four stages that the world goes through as part of the cycle of yugas described in the Indian scriptures.

[AgentR11]

In a Western Civ collapse redux, there could be a group that keeps the candle flame lit. I don't see it being our current fundamentalist churches though.. they're trying to take science out of the textbooks right now.

I don't see why us Catholics wouldn't just keep on keeping on with what we do. It might be that the professors not bound by Holy Orders choose to stop showing up when the pay consists of a cot and a bowl of hot oatmeal, but those that are, are generally in for the long haul. Its not like the Church is ludite inclined. It'll probably rankle some socially progressive academics if the last bastions of science and mathematics standing happen to be closely protected and hidden behind stone church walls; but that's where this whole modern Western academic life began anyway, so I don't see the big deal.

I don't have much hope for the fundamentalists though on this score.

Printed books can preserve knowledge, but history shows in troubled times books get burned.

Only one hard cover CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics has to survive in order to preserve a truly world shaking amount of scientific knowledge. Given the quantity of those things printed, I just don't expect that knowledge will perish.

What could be lost are some of these massive technologies of refinement, better tooling creating better tooling. If our tools fall back to basic lathes, hammers, drills and saws, we're gonna have a heck of a time making a new transistor.

[patience]

In a word, no, we are not doomed to caveman status.

I have spent some time looking at this sort of thing. It is not difficult at all to go from pioneer style log cabin life to ca. 1940's level technology in one generation. The Chinese have essentially done that, having the benefit of western tech to copy. With the leftovers of modern society, the raw materials are there to make that 200 year leap in short order.

It would not happen all over at once--progress would be limited to small areas suited to the process, just as it was during the Industrial Revolution. But as long as some survive that know how the process works, it will happen. No, not everyone has the knowledge or skills to make progress happen. That was never so, and is not true now. It only takes a few, as it only took a few throughout history. We have recorded their names for posterity: James Watt (steam engine), Eli Whitney (mass production techniques), Thomas Edison (creative inventor), the Wright Brothers (airplane). Then, in the 1970's, a little known author of metalworking hobbyist books, came David Gingery. Dave took a bag of charcoal, a bucket lined with clay, a homemade blower, and some sand molds to turn scrap aluminum into castings that he then made into metalworking wachines. His books live on after his passing away, here: http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html

There is much more capability out there in the world than most people realize, to keep our level of technology well above grubs and clubs. My workshop is full of stuff that I made with practically nothing but industrial scraps, and I am nowhere near the best guy out there.

Once you get to WWII tech level, it is pretty well downhill from there to at least the 1960's level, where China was only a few years ago. Think about this.

[vision-master]

Running water......... lsol



Dirt poor.......

[patience]

vision-master,

Long time no see!

Oh, I think that grinding dirt-poor poverty will happen here. Probably is going on now, somewhere in the US. My childhood involved carrying water, an outhouse, a wood stove in a drafty house and second hand clothes (not many of them, either). But we as a family changed all that. Yes, there was a lot more opportunity here then, than in some other countries today. Nonetheless, I went from picking strawberries for 35 cents a gallon as a kid to job making Teamster scale wages driving a truck by the time I was 19.

[PrestonSturges]

vision-master,

Long time no see!

Oh, I think that grinding dirt-poor poverty will happen here. Probably is going on now, somewhere in the US. My childhood involved carrying water, an outhouse, a wood stove in a drafty house and second hand clothes (not many of them, either). But we as a family changed all that. Yes, there was a lot more opportunity here then, than in some other countries today. Nonetheless, I went from picking strawberries for 35 cents a gallon as a kid to job making Teamster scale wages driving a truck by the time I was 19.

Wow social mobility. That door is being nailed shut and bricked over.

[Pops]

There is much more capability out there in the world than most people realize, to keep our level of technology well above grubs and clubs. My workshop is full of stuff that I made with practically nothing but industrial scraps, and I am nowhere near the best guy out there.

You were specifically the guy I was thinking about when I said "I think we forget there are hundreds of millions of folks who are able to cobble together something more substantial than a strawman argument."

[AgentR11]

VM and mos always post these pictures of human life that we are supposed to associate with backwardness or insufferable poverty, but I keep seeing a respectable way of life, with obvious signs of decent food, water, and shelter. Mocking the carrying of water in good quality, hand crafted buckets?; a family with plenty of space under roof for several beds inside a shelter appropriate for their climate?

Yeah, I know I'm a "Jetson" as Pops put it (though I didn't price myself out of the market in the boom phase), and so I require A/C and a lot of power and artificial enclosed and clean space to work, but I don't see this way of life as being superior to that of the well dressed man in the second photo.

I'm just not seeing the supposed unhappiness.

I just don't get it.

[AgentR11]

nb... maybe that's why we are truly done, even the progressive, liberal mindset sees such sustainable and honorable lifestyles as the lot of impoverished fools and downtrodden victims.

[lper100km]

Responding to the question literally as posed, the only answer is yes. End of thread.

[dohboi]

I'm with Agent on this. And a note on 'living in caves'--this much reviled practice is actually a stunningly good way to live, tens of thousands still do it in China. This and other earth-covered dwellings may be the best way to avoid the life threatening wet bulb temps likely coming our way.

Interesting that the old hackneyed cliche 'we might as well go back to living in caves' is still bandied about even as hundreds of millions fantasize about living in Hobbit holes.

My favorite parody of the use of this phrase is in the short story "The Lottery" where the notion of ending their practice of stoning one member of their village a year prompts this response.

[pstarr]

VM and mos always post these pictures of human life that we are supposed to associate with backwardness or insufferable poverty, but I keep seeing a respectable way of life, with obvious signs of decent food, water, and shelter. Mocking the carrying of water in good quality, hand crafted buckets?; a family with plenty of space under roof for several beds inside a shelter appropriate for their climate?

Yeah, I know I'm a "Jetson" as Pops put it (though I didn't price myself out of the market in the boom phase), and so I require A/C and a lot of power and artificial enclosed and clean space to work, but I don't see this way of life as being superior to that of the well dressed man in the second photo.

I'm just not seeing the supposed unhappiness.

I just don't get it.

I usually have no idea what VM intends. Did he really intend those pictures to be derogatory? Because if he did then he is completely clueless. There are millions of people around the world who live happier, healthier, longer lives then average Americans and don't waste 1% of the planet that we do.

[peeker01]

ok. let's take a vote. is it desirable to carry water on your shoulders? is it something you want to do?
is it something you want your children to do?

[lper100km]

ok. let's take a vote. is it desirable to carry water on your shoulders? is it something you want to do?
is it something you want your children to do?

What's to dislike?

[Bill Hicks]

ok. let's take a vote. is it desirable to carry water on your shoulders? is it something you want to do?
is it something you want your children to do?

Um...maybe some will say yes, but not me. I'll match my record as a doomsayer with anyone...but I am in no way, shape or from looking forward to it. I read Kunstler's World Made by Hand, where he tried to portray a post collapse community where life actually wasn't too bad and all I could think was: that ain't for me even if I can't avoid it.

[AgentR11]

ok. let's take a vote. is it desirable to carry water on your shoulders? is it something you want to do?
is it something you want your children to do?

I wouldn't be distressed if my child carried water on her shoulders when she's older and caring for her family's needs. Still, its unlikely because of our region. Texas has no natural lakes, and few rivers that hold a decent amount of water in their natural configuration. Generally, we dig wells or capture rainwater if we aren't to rely on city water. Shallow water wells in Texas give pretty poor quality water, but deep ones are excellent. I grew up drinking unadulterated water from a deep well. Awesome stuff.

I suspect rainwater capture with big cisterns is more reliable going forward; which invariably would be tied to the house's indoor plumbing.

Basically, the question is moot for my part since there is no where to carry the water from for most Texans.

[AgentR11]

Do you have running water?
I just turn on the tap an it flows, no running at all..... lsol

As would happen with rainwater capture too. As happens with deep water wells. Its not possible here to carry water in buckets on shoulders; and there is also nothing evil or degrading about carrying water for your family.

The woman in the image is living at a sustainable, dignified level of human lifestyle.

Sweating a little will not kill you, I promise.

[patience]

Preston Sturges said:
"Wow social mobility. That door is being nailed shut and bricked over."

Only if you are allergic to mental effort and physical work. But yes, for the useless eaters in our society, I'd say they aren't upwardly mobile.

[vision-master]

“Worthless people live only to eat and drink; people of worth eat and drink only to live.”
Socrates