[americandream]

The former USSR has been backed into a corner by its fragmentation by capitalists and their feudal travel buddies in the Islamic world. If a post peak world falls to barbarism, religious feudalism will be its basis. So whilst six wails forlornly at Putin's actions, he needs to reflect on the long term legacy left by his Reaganite cohorts.

[dissident]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... iNf8N41mLo

The above video shows the aftermath of a bombing run by Kiev regime jets on a residential street in Stanitsa Luganskaya. Psaki and Harf will repeat regime press releases verbatim and claim it was the "rebels that done it". America thinks it can get away with f*cking over third world countries. But there will be costs for America trying to f*ck over Russians by using Ukrainians as cannon fodder. America needs to be contained.

[dissident]

And all the American sock puppet organizations like the OSCE, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, etc. have lost whatever credibility they had. The last OSCE report did not even mention the fact that the Kiev regime is shelling civilians. All those videos taken by residents with their cellphone cams must all be one big elaborate hoax. This joke of a report also bemoaned Russian "influence" over the rebels. Quite a climb down from the original claim by the US and its puppets that the rebels were all GRU agents. Listen to the voices of on the video I linked above. The residents of this village are cursing Poroshenko and calling his regime fascists. That is exactly what the quisling regime is.

[dissident]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... it-SuKSh2Q

Psaki and Harf will have you know that it is the rebels who are shelling Slaviansk. Why? Because the US quisling regime said so. But the above video is made by regime forces and shows them attacking Slaviansk with artillery. Who are you going to believe, the two US government spokesbimbos or your lying eyes?

[Sixstrings]

The last OSCE report did not even mention the fact that the Kiev regime is shelling civilians. All those videos taken by residents with their cellphone cams must all be one big elaborate hoax.

There are videos that claim to be of separatists firing mortar rounds in residential areas. I don't know if that's true or not, but common sense tells me it's the ukrainian army that has the artillery so, lacking definitive information, I'd tend to agree with you.

Just so you know, and you probably know this already, when the West supports a regime anywhere then some things are going to be overlooked. It's a calculation about overall good and whether the "other side" is even worse.

Unless it gets TOO bad and TOO ugly and over the line, then the West really does the right thing and will yank support. The US did that with Egypt and now your government is the one selling the military leader weapons with a "no strings attached arms deal." Diss, you can't tell me Russians are bleading hearts about humanitarianism in general. If Egyptians get mowed down now, in a future uprising against dictatorship, it'll be Russian weapons that mow them down.

Same with Assad, a dictator, being so brutal. Though I'm kind of starting to understand him on that, those ISIS are really bad! Still does not excuse nerve gassing civilian men, women, and children -- that is evil. Evil doesn't excuse more evil, to fight it.

All these situations around the world have a bunch of bad guys in them. Assad's a nasty dictator and then ISIS are like the Hun. And then in the midst there were Syrian moderate forces, and in Ukraine too you've got that right sector that are kind of badass but then there were the million occupy wall street types in that maidan that were the major force of the movement.

About the separatist groups: I don't know the truth for sure, but I see a lot of reports that many of the militants are thugs and "drug addicts" and have become bandits and looters. So really Diss I don't see them making any kind of good gov anyway, the average people in Donbass would be better under Poroshenko. And build themselves UP with the EU going forward, rather than having to rebuild after a senseless war.

This joke of a report also bemoaned Russian "influence" over the rebels. Quite a climb down from the original claim by the US and its puppets that the rebels were all GRU agents.

In the Amanpour interview, Poroshenko names the names of who are GRU agents. I think the honest truth is that these really are organic separatist groups that Russians just jumped the gun and got all gung ho to support and started sending them weapons and then a few rocket launchers and they tried tanks, and Russia has sent APC's. Some Russian citizens are in fact crossing the border to fight with the separatists.

So that's the truth, it's a mix. But you know what, they did not even give the new Western government a chance! They started all this right after Yanu fled! So you can't even say they were ever oppressed, they didn't give Poroshenko a chance. (and again, east Ukrainians voted Poroshenko! That's why he is president and not Yulia, what are you guys even complaining about -- Poroshenko is party of regions, same as Yanu, was in the Yanu government, this worked out fair)

Listen to the voices of on the video I linked above. The residents of this village are cursing Poroshenko and calling his regime fascists. That is exactly what the quisling regime is.

Yup, violence begets violence. The separatist militants occupied Donbass, they are gunmen that took it over and the average people were neutral about it, but you never had a million people maidan supporting this. The people just accepted the armed groups ruling over them, so now here comes the Ukrainian army and there's artillery landing so yes I understand them hating Poroshenko now.

Civil rebellion must be put down though, Dissident, in any democracy you go to the ballot box you don't take up arms. Maidan was different because that was mass supported popular revolution. Yanu could not put it down because tens of millions of Ukrainians wouldn't support that or let him.

Things are different now, every region voted Poroshenko, the people support him and want him to put down this rebellion.

I know it's ugly but you know that Putin would do the same Poroshenko is doing, if it were a rebelious region in Russia. And we would in the US too. We wouldn't even let it get that far -- like if latinos overthrew a state gov and then they had Mexicans coming over to fight, and Mexican intel agents, and Mexico sending APCs and tanks to American latino separatists. US wouldn't put up with that, Russia wouldn't, Ukraine has a right to restore order too.

*I sympathize here Dissident, but even if it were my own country, if we had a militant group of Americans taking up arms and shooting off rocket launchers they got from some other country, then I'm sorry I'd be for the government putting that rebellion down and restoring order*

I wouldn't be like "oh, we need a cease fire, we should go talk to the Mexican president and ask him to stop sending weapons in." Just speaking here if this were in my country, I'd be like "screw that" send in the army you cannot have foreign agitated separatist militias in your country for crying out loud. Russia wouldn't put up with that, we wouldn't, nobody would.

If Russia just wants a weak Ukrainian president and weak Ukraine then that's not going to happen, Ukrainians elected a strong leader. He's flat out said he will not be the weak Ukrainian president that Russia may like to have.

[Sixstrings]

Just to clarify, there's not actual proof that Ukrainian army is shelling apartments. A youtube video is not proof.

Separatists do have their own mortar artillery too, that they got from army warehouses, and there are vids that say it's separatists shelling an apartment.

So I don't really know, which side is right, or if they're both firing these things off and it's an urban battlefield.

My guess is that the Ukrainian ato (anti terrorism force) is doing all they can to avoid it. Just as the US did in the Iraq war, and Afghanistan, but it's still war in populated areas and sh*t happens. For crying out loud, Putin has been outright brutal at times in putting down rebellions, we all know this. I've seen nothing like that from the Ukrainian side.

The whole thing is ugly, Russia should not have supported these militant pockets, it looks to me like the militant fighters are "thugs" and I think Poroshenko is right and they're "bandits" and a lot of Ukrainians are saying the same thing, that they're terrorists and bandits and they're looting and all of that.

I could be wrong, I don't know, I just sift through the zeitgeist and call it like I see it and what my gut tells me. I've observed the whole thing start to finish, and I have been a little bit wrong on some impressions but overall I've been a lot right.

(like, for one thing, these militants that Poroshenko call terrorists really have taken hostages. They've held people captive coming in off a flight from international monitoring groups. Just look at the headlines, "four international hostages released" "militants shoot down plane killing all 49 on board" -- that tells you something.

Ukrainians have a right to be pissed off. Russians would be too, if they had a plane go down from militants, we would be too, people don't want this they want law and order and they all voted Poroshenko and he seems to have the wide support for restoring order that Yanu did not have. It's their country, it's not Russia's country, it's not Germany's, they have rights and are independent and can defend themselves and keep order in their country.

They have fair elections now, there's nothing to complain about, it's time for law and order.)

[Sixstrings]

This ethnic sectarianism thing can go too far.

We've got a lot of latinos in the US and Mexican Americans. So how would we feel if Mexico had a nationalist president out to unite all latinos and defend latinos everywhere? Hm?

Then suddenly drug cartels are getting so much power and starting their sh*t over here (that's actually going on right now, and the cartels have control over Mexican gov too).

But in my scenario, let's say Mexico has that nationalist president and he's got Univision and the Spanish channels doing wall-to-wall nationalist ethnic stoking 24/7.

In that scenario, just because the United States has so many Mexican Americans does not mean Mexico has a say in any damn thing that goes on over here, period.

Would we put up with that? A Mexican government shipping in weapons? And APC's? And rocket launchers?

It's not coming from the Mexican government, but this really is going on with the cartels right now in the US southwest -- they even put up billboards warning American police to take the bribes or get shot. "take the silver or take the lead" is the slogan, in Spanish.

I'm not making this shit up, that's really going on right now.

Any government must protect itself, no nation is just an open borders place that other nations can play in just because they share a darn ethnicity. Mexicans in America live in the US, if they don't like it they can go back to Mexico. And Russians in Ukraine are Ukrainian, they are not Russian, the Russian state doesn't own a place just because ethnic Russians live there.

These are important principles. We're talking about national independence and sovereignty, and this is why Japan is on Ukraine's side because of the principle. Japan is very concerned about territorial integrity. They don't want centuries-old historical minutia and nationalist pride to become a valid reason for China to just grab something.

If Poroshenko were a dictator then I'd STFU, because then he would have no moral authority, but so far the new government is doing the right things:

1. Tackling corruption. Finally. THE biggest problem Ukraine has. Any progress on that is a good thing.

2. Poroshenko is the first Ukrainian president to start a tradition of divesting personal businesses -- it's the same thing our American presidents do. Poroshenko says from now on Ukrainian presidents won't be in business, they'll focus on serving the people. (sounds corny, but of course a national president shouldn't own a business too. For example, Putin is worth $28 billion from kickbacks. THAT is the kind of thing that must change, for Ukraine, and Poroshenko is going to do it.

3. He's promised free use of the Russian language. US really are the good guys, we stepped in fast when that Russian language law was passed. We are nudging Ukraine into progress and doing things the right way. That means protecting ethnic Russians too. It's how we do things in the US, this is why we don't have ethnic and religious uprisings because we don't suppress any groups to start with. (so we don't really have to worry about my fictional Mexican separatist scenario We don't have separatists, we're a melting pot and all are equal in opportunity and rights anyway)

4. He's no nazi or radical. Ukraine has that right sector, but, the voters chose Poroshenko not Yulia. He's the perfect man for the job. Establishment but a reformer, and independent and will stand up to Putin. Good business sense. Patriotic. Doing good for his country not just another oligarch wanting to fill his pockets.

5. He's promising local authority for Donbass, I don't know all the details on that but he sounds reasonable. Guys, Poroshenko is a hell of a lot better than Yanu was. Nobody liked Yanu, dictator, stealing from the treasury and his Disneyland dacha and his vodka with his picture on it. This Poroshenko is a lot better.

If any of the above ever changes about Poroshenko and he becomes a dictator and loses popular support, and if he does what Yanu did and just changes the constitution and starts taking all the power to himself, then I'd shut up -- because he will have lost moral authority. It wouldn't be democracy anymore, and people would have a right to revolt.

That's what our American values are. Revolution against tyrannical British Empire was just, but the whiskey rebellion against the new American democracy was not. Washington hated to do it, but he sent the army out, he told them you're in a democracy now you have a vote now, put down your guns.

[Sixstrings]

Poroshenko agrees to a second cease-fire. War is very ugly, it's tragic if it's Syria or Iraq or Ukraine.

But you also have to stand up for yourself or you'll get chewed up and spit out, that's reality, especially facing off against a grandmaster chess strategist, and very tough guy, like Putin.

Strategically, Poroshenko made the right move and showed strength and willingness to go on an offensive -- this has now woken up EU leaders to work harder on the issue, and I'm sure it got Putin's attention so now maybe Putin will do more. If Donbass is resolved, Crimea remains an open question.

Ukraine agrees to second cease-fire as fighting worsens

Ukraine and Russia agreed Wednesday to a second cease-fire, as the Ukrainian military continued fighting insurgents in the country's eastern provinces.

Foreign ministers from those two countries plus Germany and France, meeting in Berlin, announced a plan to reopen talks by Saturday "with the goal of reaching an unconditional and mutually agreed sustainable cease-fire."

The agreement comes after five Ukrainian troops and hundreds of pro-Russian separatists were killed as government forces engaged in more than 100 clashes since late Monday night when Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko ended a unilateral, 10-day cease-fire.

The four foreign ministers, in their statement, stressed "the necessity of a sustainable cease-fire, to be agreed upon swiftly."

The agreement would involve Russian cooperation with Ukrainian forces on border security, the return of key border crossings to Ukrainian control, and free access to international monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, in which Russia is a member.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said after the talks in Berlin that the cease-fire should not be used to give the military time to regroup and bring in reinforcements. Both Ukraine and the separatists accused each other of using the previous cease-fire to re-arm.

Asked whether Russia has any influence over the rebels, Lavrov said that "we have possibilities to influence those who defend their families, their soil and their territory."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/02/talks-as-ukraine-fighting-worsens/12033425/

That sounds like some progress:

1. Ukraine gets some border checkpoints back.
2. Some kind of deal for joint Russian-Ukrainian border patrol
3. International observers can go in, won't be taken hostage anymore

The civilian suffering is horrible in this thing, but, we're talking about a really tough region where everyone is playing hardball and there's Putin in the mix and his probable longterm goal of controlling Ukraine and expanding terrority -- that means constant meddling and destabilizing in Ukraine.

A Ukrainian president has very real national security problems to deal with.

Will be interesting to see how Poroshenko evolves. So far it's looking like maybe an Israeli strategy -- declare a ceasefire, it gets broken, then go on a tough offensive, make gradual progress.

Ultimately the new gov hasn't even oppressed the people, the people aren't even with the militants anyway, the thing just needs to end.

[dissident]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... rDcxk#t=31

Kiev regime forces filming themselves and their artillery. The target is Slaviansk. Psaki and Harf and the sycophant western media which thinks repeating government press statements is "journalism" would have the world believe that the rebels are the only ones using artillery in some epic false flag operation.

The regime is mounting an all out effort to cleanse eastern Ukraine. The analogue for this operation is the one carried out by the Croat army in 1995 to ethnically cleanse Krajina. The USA was on the side of the ethnic cleansers back then as well.

[AgentR11]

Dis.. .you bring up an interesting point of ethnic cleansing.... It'd be hard to look at US history and not note the massive, coast to coast, cleansing that we performed to take what we wanted and create a nation out of it; while we didn't go as far as to exterminate all that were here before, we certain broke them all, then put them in little camps, kinda like endangered species on a preserve, whose existence is completely dependent upon the enclosing state.

OTOH.. the video.. I saw 6 trailered guns and enough ammunition to last a minute or two. Absolutely ineffective for the suggested purpose, really only good for firing an intermittent round into a city to cause fear amongst the civilian population. Conclusion... Ukraine believes they are fighting grandpa the aggrieved insurgent, even as their lips babble the accidental truth. They are fighting an army of enthusiastic Russian volunteers, well armed and well supplied, and likely with decent training, and ample local volunteer and drafted support. W. Ukraine is not going to win this fight. They are going to lose, and they will be lucky if Kiev isn't sacked.

[americandream]

Dis.. .you bring up an interesting point of ethnic cleansing.... It'd be hard to look at US history and not note the massive, coast to coast, cleansing that we performed to take what we wanted and create a nation out of it; while we didn't go as far as to exterminate all that were here before, we certain broke them all, then put them in little camps, kinda like endangered species on a preserve, whose existence is completely dependent upon the enclosing state.

OTOH.. the video.. I saw 6 trailered guns and enough ammunition to last a minute or two. Absolutely ineffective for the suggested purpose, really only good for firing an intermittent round into a city to cause fear amongst the civilian population. Conclusion... Ukraine believes they are fighting grandpa the aggrieved insurgent, even as their lips babble the accidental truth. They are fighting an army of enthusiastic Russian volunteers, well armed and well supplied, and likely with decent training, and ample local volunteer and drafted support. W. Ukraine is not going to win this fight. They are going to lose, and they will be lucky if Kiev isn't sacked.

All rather pointless as neither of these states will withstand the onslaught of globalisation.

[Sixstrings]

Regarding ethnicies in Ukraine, does anyone know the breakdown?

I heard on teevee "3 million" ethnic Russians in east Ukraine. I thought there were more than that. All of Ukraine has like 42 million or so, so how many are ethnic Russians versus ethnic Ukrainians?

If it's a very small minority then I'm more understanding about their fears of persecution.

OTOH, the separatists look to be like a bunch of bandits and thugs. Not exactly any kind of good government.

Also OTOH, this is still a sovereign independent nation. We've probably got a million ethnic Russians in the US, just because they're a minority wouldn't mean they can rebel against the US government and get weapons coming in from Russia, and rocket launchers, and tanks and Russian intel officers.

We've got lots of minority ethnicities. Russia does too. Russia didn't let Chechnya go, did it? No, it squashed it and leveled it and rebuilt it.

Many nations have ethnic minorities, you can't just go stoking problems in other places and break every country up along ethnic lines -- isn't THAT ethnic cleansing?

[Sixstrings]

Having said the above, because I'm fair and balanced and faily balanced, here's an article for Dissident and Radon (not sure if this was posted before):

Joe Biden's Son Is Now On The Board Of One Of Ukraine's Biggest Gas Conglomerates

The company, Burisma Holdings, announced Biden's appointment on its website Tuesday. Burisma said Biden would be the new head of the company's legal unit.

"Hunter Biden is a private citizen and a lawyer. The Vice President does not endorse any particular company and has no involvement with this company," Barkoff said. "For any additional questions, I refer you to Hunter’s office."
http://www.businessinsider.com/hunter-biden-joes-son-ukraine-gas-company-burisma-holdings-2014-5

My opinion?

This is a good example of the kind of corruption we've got in the US. It's not big, massive corruption like Ukraine and Russia, but still.. it's a an interest group rewarding a friendly politician with a job for his son.

If you were a Ukrainian energy company, wouldn't YOU want to hire the US vice president's son? Of course you would. Of course that's going to get some favorable treatment.

Biden supports Ukraine anyway, but this is just a "thank you," and Washington is full of it with all these guys getting lobbying gigs / corporate executive positions after they leave office.

And that SpaceX scandal.. where the air force officer that granted Boeing / Lockheed billions in monopoly contracts, he then then got hired by the Boeing-Lockheed joint rocket company.

So there ya go.. it's payback.. scratching backs.. and corruption. Just like how the Clintons are so much in bed with hedge funds -- if I recall, Chelsea got a job with a hedge fund! Is it all coincidence? The Clintons were sure good to banksters over the years.

Having said that, American corruption isn't as bad as Putin being worth $28 billion from kickbacks.

And I don't really care Biden's son is an executive for that company now, at least you know Ukraine is a topic at the family dinner table on holidays. At least you know Ukraine's going to be in Biden's mind -- his son is there, working for a company there.

[americandream]

What do you propose six? Reigning in those who pay the wages of most.

[AgentR11]

All rather pointless as neither of these states will withstand the onslaught of globalisation.

You're just determined to not be interested in the game simply because, eventually, the players end up in the old folks home watching sit coms and writing grumpy letters.

What's weirder, is that with all that disinterest, you are still interested enough to post a comment.

odd.....

[AgentR11]

Six, you keep going on about how "you can't do XYZ", when that is precisely what they are doing, and will continue to do, probably for many months, and maybe years.

Need to look up the definition of can, because those that you are complaining about most certainly can do and are doing, precisely what you say they can't.

And the reason again is simple. There are no responses the West has that exceed the value of what is on the table.

[AgentR11]

ad... I know how you can think of this in terms of globalization.

We'reThey're playing price discovery for the Crimea and its EEZ.

[americandream]

All rather pointless as neither of these states will withstand the onslaught of globalisation.

You're just determined to not be interested in the game simply because, eventually, the players end up in the old folks home watching sit coms and writing grumpy letters.

What's weirder, is that with all that disinterest, you are still interested enough to post a comment.

odd.....

There's no game here. These are objective forces we are dealing with. I'll try and explain. No matter who does what anywhere on this planet, culturally, we are all fish in the fishbowl of capitalist culture....from cradle to grave. Everyone...from those who live in abject terror of global warming to the denialists. No matter what we do, we daily give effect to this system. I find the farcical high jinks in the ME for example, rather tragic to watch. Utter waste of life and time as no matter what they do, they will eventually end up at the doorstep of the globalising process. At best all we can do is understand the system and its core tendencies, look on at the spectacle of pointless conflict over religions and nationalisms that will eventually fall to globalisation and prepare ourselves for what follows the end of this system.

In addition, playing the martyr with objective forces is plain old stupid. These forces arose not from us but from surrounding conditions that brought forth this culture. Surrounding conditions will destroy it. We are merely the agents for these material conditions. So its not a case of these people ending up in old folks homes, these people are flailing in the dark to start with. Wasting precious time basically. They will get nowhere, capitalism will throw forth the conditions that give full effect to it anyways and marches on in its relentless spread. OWS learnt this lesson.

At times I also tend to slip into moments of subjective despair when I vent forth at Reagan and Thatcher but eventually pull myself up upon realisation that we would have been here no matter who ruled in those decades. And thats the secret to dealing with ongoing developments..not slipping into perpetual emotional states but trying to stand back as much as possible. Thus when I see six forever wittering on about developments that are going to come to pass, I try and remind him that he is better employed dealing with the real issues that matter in his life than wailing on about the inevitable. There is no way that Putin has the capacity to derail this system. No one has apart from history which will play out in its own time.

[AgentR11]

There is no way that Putin has the capacity to derail this system. No one has apart from history which will play out in its own time.

Why would anyone think he's trying to derail the system? He, and the collection of oligarchs he manages/serves, are bidding for a spectacularly valuable piece of real estate, though its value is challenging to monetize, making price discovery difficult for the participants. The system, as you put it, has to function in order to monetize the Crimea annexation. Even in methods of adapting to whatever sanctions occur, the value basis of the exchange media is dependent upon a well functioning system in London and NY; even if the trade is 100% cleared in renminbi; it works because the renminbi has a known (and reasonably stable) value vs the dollar; and that valuation is absolutely dependent upon London/NY.

A lot of doomers have fantasies of breaking the financial system, or think dollar hegemony is somehow threatened. The existence of renminbi cleared trade, and its increase, is not a sign of any threat to the dollar, but rather an indicator that despite the dollar's central role, the dread globalists can make do with alternate pathways to exchange material for markers, and markers for products. Its a proof that sanctions are pointless, not that the dollar is in any danger within a reasonable time horizon.

Now, LONG term, as in 50+ year kind of long, it may be that China's population plus continued industrial development plus building up the internal volume of its consumer base, may result in the renminbi becoming the preferred currency, but it will be preferred because those in London have come to prefer it. That said, I'm not sure China *wants* that to happen; my read is that they would like to do renminbi regionally, and maybe for simple 2-way trade Africa/S. America, and some specific corporate import/export operations in US/EU.

I think I do have to object to the notion of "better things to do..." and "not slipping into perpetual emotional states but trying to stand back as much as possible. "; I grew up listening to my parents invest emotion into sports teams on tv, playing a game my father played when younger.. They still enjoy it to this day, though perhaps less energetically. I've tried watching from time to time, and usually fall asleep in under 30 minutes. Others get attached to other "teams", on sitcoms, reality tv, whatever. I've always enjoyed observing the teams/individual athletes that contest ownership of the world, trying to discern some of the playbook through filtering multiple press providers (eg, FT, xinhua, ap/reuters, even RFE,RT&Fox). Basically, as a 20'something, I had to decide between two passions, because I simply don't have the personal energy to do both with any professional degree of competence; so I left the history books behind, clutched my epsilons and delta's and went forward. Not a bad choice; so reading and commenting on forums provides an inexpensive substitute for studying thousands of pages of drivel and gathering up enough interesting material to write a paper titled "Logistical Support of the Ottoman Galley Fleet in the Mediterranean During the 15th and 16th century" and then argue about it endlessly with other crazy people who like to simultaneously dally with old books and poverty. That would be cool and awesome, though also, like the Crimea, rather difficult to monetize.

Besides, don't knock the globalist oligarchs, I get to make math doodles and code and they turn it into cookies and fried chicken. Really, how cool is that?

[Keith_McClary]

If Mexico outgunned us 100:1.. maybe a ceasefire and negotiation with Mexico would be a good idea.

That's what happened when it was the other way around.