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Another Conservative Stands on the Soap Box

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Another Conservative Stands on the Soap Box

Unread postby MD » Sat 14 May 2005, 13:30:35

First allow me to pigeonhole myself as a typical monothesitic-moralist-conservative-capitalist.

Normally I would welcome the opposition to gentle debate or proselytism, but before you run off to turn up the Flame and prepare the Tar, I submit that the issues at hand require we temporarily set aside our ideological differences.

The "issues at hand" are of course Peak Oil and associated.

Peak Oil has been somewhat politicized up to now, which should not be a surprise as awareness has primarily grown from the "left" end of the spectrum (yes, there are clear exceptions). It has therefore been more difficult to get attention from the "right", who have a difficult time seeing the facts clearly through the haze of polical meanderings that exist throughout much of the available content.

I submit that we no longer have time for any of this. We must promote the immediate dissemination of Peak Oil facts to the world. The presentation must be as factual and apolitical as possible, with a focus on the current status, not outcome scenarios.

We must have world wide acceptance, and we must have it immediately if we are to have any hope for limiting instability.

My hope for the future is that 20 years from now, we can still meet and wax philosophical without fear of midnight visits from the gendarmes.
Last edited by MD on Sat 14 May 2005, 14:07:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another Conservative Stands on the Soap Box

Unread postby RickTaylor » Sat 14 May 2005, 13:40:00

MD wrote:Firt allow me to pigeonhole myself as a typical monothesitic-moralist-conservative-capitalist.

Normally I would welcome the opposition to gentle debate or proselytism, but before you run off to turn up the Flame and prepare the Tar, I submit that the issues at hand require we temporarily set aside our ideological differences.

The "issues at hand" are of course Peak Oil and associated.

I agree completely. It's all about building a coalition. Besides, it's not as though democrats have exactly taken the lead in facing what we're up against.

--Rick
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Couldn't agree more

Unread postby EddieB » Sat 14 May 2005, 14:18:22

I don't quite fit the pigeon hole that you describe but in some respects, particularly the monothesitc part, I lean your way. I"ve taken to writing e-mails/letters to various media corporations, congresspeople (Bartlett, my senators, white house, etc), and talking w/people I know. I can't do that much, but I can put the meme out there over and over again. Eventually it will catch-on.
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Unread postby killJOY » Sat 14 May 2005, 16:10:55

Peak Oil has been somewhat politicized up to now, which should not be a surprise as awareness has primarily grown from the "left" end of the spectrum (yes, there are clear exceptions). It has therefore been more difficult to get attention from the "right", who have a difficult time seeing the facts clearly through the haze of polical meanderings that exist throughout much of the available content.
the great irony being the prominence of Matthew Simmons, among PO's top spokespersons, very engaging, and smart to boot; the other irony being Roscoe Bartlett, the conservative Rep from MD, whose PO presentations have been fabulous. Dems and Greens, being on the outs, are afraid of this issue, at least publically. They've been too much on the receiving end of "crackpot" or unpopular environmental issues, though the greens, I think, are lightyears ahead of everyone else as far as private awareness and preparation are concerned.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Unread postby killJOY » Sat 14 May 2005, 17:24:51

It is so far beyond too late it isn't even remotely funny.
I tend to agree. I have worked hard to:
a) bring the news to family and friends
b) disseminate information to local media
c) teach energy issue to my students

Then I watch what's going on around me, even in this small town, and it's as if nothing were wrong. People are incredibly, insanely unprepared for what is about to happen--whatever that might be.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Unread postby RdSnt » Sat 14 May 2005, 17:31:07

Another irony is that I'm anticipating as much trouble from environmentalists as I am from hide-bound conservatives. Hmmmm, "conservatives", is that another irony?
Environmentalists have fought so hard to be heard and now are about to get what they want handed to them, just not the way they want it. Peak oil is going to force use to move even faster than the Kyoto protocol demands.
Along the way though, we are going to have to use coal and nuclear fuel in much greater quantities. Why? Because we are so thoroughly unprepared for petroleum decline compromise will be necessary just to hold our societies together long enough to transition beyond petroleum addiction.
The environmentalists will be just as blind in their demands and conservatives in their ignorance.
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Re: Another Conservative Stands on the Soap Box

Unread postby MD » Sat 14 May 2005, 17:49:55

kochevnik wrote:
MD wrote:
I submit that we no longer have time for any of this. We must promote the immediate dissemination of Peak Oil facts to the world. The presentation must be as factual and apolitical as possible, with a focus on the current status, not outcome scenarios.

We must have world wide acceptance, and we must have it immediately if we are to have any hope for limiting instability.




The 'current status' is that gasoline in the USA is just over $2 a gallon. Nobody out there is very interested in what ANY of us here have to say ... just like 30 years ago when Jimmy Carter and the LTG folks put it to everyone straight.

It is so far beyond too late it isn't even remotely funny. Nice of you to come to the party, but you're about 3 decades late.


It didn't take expensive gasoline or economic discomfort to get my attention, just the thoughtful comment of a colleague.

Is it ever too late to try and save humanity?
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Unread postby Jack » Sat 14 May 2005, 18:34:14

Welcome to Peak Oil, MD, and please accept my compliments on your posting.

It's true that we need to work together. We may not - probably will not, IMO - be able to avoid a crash, but we might be able to mitigate some of the consequences.

The challenge is opening a dialog; fortunately, the price of fuel will make people more receptive.
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Re: Another Conservative Stands on the Soap Box

Unread postby MicroHydro » Sun 15 May 2005, 00:30:45

kochevnik wrote:It is so far beyond too late it isn't even remotely funny. Nice of you to come to the party, but you're about 3 decades late.


Agree. The time for mitigation was in the 1970s.

The bible story of a condemmed criminal's everlasting soul being saved while dying on the cross is reassuring, but doesn't apply to energy policy.

The physical universe of finite geological resources doesn't care less that good God fearing conservatives have finally discovered environmentalism, aka "creation stewardship". It has been 35 years since the first Earth Day and US peak oil. Too much hundred million year oil hydrocarbon has gone out the tailpipe while the good people of the USA were worrying about boys kissing each other.

The rational transition to sustainability that scientists have been urging since the late 1950s can't happen now. The world is way too far gone into overshoot. That is why a brilliant Caltech graduate student snapped and is doing 8 years in prison for torching SUV dealerships around Pasadena. He knew that his future was bleak, and was full of rage.

So the gated communities full of McMansions and drive-in megachurches are headed for hard times. Pray that the bitter youths whose futures have been stolen don't take out their anger and frustration in nilistic acts of revenge.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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Unread postby venky » Sun 15 May 2005, 03:38:31

Putting aside ideologies in the wake of dealing with Peak Oil does carry merit, and I also agree that the main imperative is to spread the word as efficiently as possible and arriving at a course of action to mitigate the worst effects of peak oil.

However, uncontrolled corporatism-crony capitalism; the philosophy of unrestricted growth at all costs is what is responsible to the mess that humanity finds itself in now. Any solution to oil depletion will involve localization, self-sufficiency and sustainability and will have no place for perpetual growth capitalism. Mind you, I still believe in personal freedoms and free markets to an extent; however I see no place for the corporatism which has plagued our planet. And since Republican-conservatism is so tightly tied to this ideology, it will stand discredited once the world wakes up to peak oil. Especially, since Republicans now control all branches of the government.
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Unread postby arretium » Sun 15 May 2005, 04:09:35

I think even once gas hits $5 a gallon, we'll still have "time" to figure something out. Remember, production is declining at 3-8% a year, most likely 5%. It's not going to go off a cliff, unless SA is more fubared than any of us, even Matt Simmons, realizes.

I think one poster stated that production should actually rise in 2006. We've still got a few good years left. Use the time to put yourself in a good or best that you can financial situation. This essentially means stop spending money.

Given our political climate, I have a hard time figuring out what is going to happen to our country. The radical Left/Right scream past one another. Neither of them listen to the other because neither side offers one acorn of credit to the opposing side. A couple of days ago, I went to Rush Limbaugh's website and read his "analysis" of Newt Gingrich and Hillary Clinton. He dogged Newt because he had the audacity to agree with Hillary on an issue. With mouthpieces like him, it's little wonder that we aren't getting anywhere. The problem is two fold. For every Rush their's someone on the left doing the same thing. Second, our form of media sells conflict because that's what people want to read/watch. People don't watch Congressional members getting along, instead they tune out to watch something else. The media needs people to pay attention to sell ads, so the media needs conflict to survive.
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Unread postby MD » Sun 15 May 2005, 05:24:56

Various species within the ecological systems of this planet have experienced overshoot and crash. Long after this current mega-event is forgotten to history, boom-bust cycles will continue in various forms until the energy boom in the center of our solar system busts into a fusionless lump of matter. The cycle of life marches relentlessly into the future.

This current cycle is unique in several ways, and therefore offers a singular opportunity that must be exploited, no matter how remote the odds for success.

This massive peak, driven by nearly free energy, has also fueled a knowledge explosion unparallelled in history and unlikely to be repeated on this planet for eons, if ever.

Therin lies the unique opportunity. Humankind has the capacity, and for the moment the knowledge, to steer the crash towards a sustainable and enlightened future culture.

Those that have been in the chicken little box for many years may be understandably inclined to fold their arms and say "to hell with you all, we tried to warn you, it's too late."

Is is very likely true that it is too late. We may all be soon faced with a relentless series of excruciatingly difficult and very personal decisions that may make efforts to soften the blow impossible.

Nevertheless I must try.
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Unread postby MD » Sun 15 May 2005, 05:44:35

venky wrote:Putting aside ideologies in the wake of dealing with Peak Oil does carry merit, and I also agree that the main imperative is to spread the word as efficiently as possible and arriving at a course of action to mitigate the worst effects of peak oil.

However, uncontrolled corporatism-crony capitalism; the philosophy of unrestricted growth at all costs is what is responsible to the mess that humanity finds itself in now. Any solution to oil depletion will involve localization, self-sufficiency and sustainability and will have no place for perpetual growth capitalism. Mind you, I still believe in personal freedoms and free markets to an extent; however I see no place for the corporatism which has plagued our planet. And since Republican-conservatism is so tightly tied to this ideology, it will stand discredited once the world wakes up to peak oil. Especially, since Republicans now control all branches of the government.


True in essence, but semantically politicized. Perpetual growth within a finite system is of course impossible.

The systematic difficulty is in modulating natural cycles into predictable and controlled patterns. I am not convinced that any of the current political models are sufficient to the task.
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Unread postby RdSnt » Sun 15 May 2005, 11:14:38

arretium wrote:I think even once gas hits $5 a gallon, we'll still have "time" to figure something out. Remember, production is declining at 3-8% a year, most likely 5%. It's not going to go off a cliff, unless SA is more fubared than any of us, even Matt Simmons, realizes.



Petroleum supply won't go off a cliff but the US economy is about to. With regards to finding rational solutions to the coming problems, that is actually more important in the immediate future than supply constraints.
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
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Unread postby RdSnt » Sun 15 May 2005, 11:18:40

MD wrote:Various species within the ecological systems of this planet have experienced overshoot and crash. Long after this current mega-event is forgotten to history, boom-bust cycles will continue in various forms until the energy boom in the center of our solar system busts into a fusionless lump of matter. The cycle of life marches relentlessly into the future.

This current cycle is unique in several ways, and therefore offers a singular opportunity that must be exploited, no matter how remote the odds for success.

This massive peak, driven by nearly free energy, has also fueled a knowledge explosion unparallelled in history and unlikely to be repeated on this planet for eons, if ever.

Therin lies the unique opportunity. Humankind has the capacity, and for the moment the knowledge, to steer the crash towards a sustainable and enlightened future culture.

Those that have been in the chicken little box for many years may be understandably inclined to fold their arms and say "to hell with you all, we tried to warn you, it's too late."

Is is very likely true that it is too late. We may all be soon faced with a relentless series of excruciatingly difficult and very personal decisions that may make efforts to soften the blow impossible.

Nevertheless I must try.


Strategic pandering might not be a bad approach. Pander to the greed of the corporate elite, pump them up on the profits they will be able to make on new energy technologies.
Quite frankly I don't give a damn how we accomplish power-down, provided we move forward into civilization rather than retreating into the "good-old-days".
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
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Unread postby MD » Sun 15 May 2005, 11:26:29

RdSnt wrote:
arretium wrote:I think even once gas hits $5 a gallon, we'll still have "time" to figure something out. Remember, production is declining at 3-8% a year, most likely 5%. It's not going to go off a cliff, unless SA is more fubared than any of us, even Matt Simmons, realizes.



Petroleum supply won't go off a cliff but the US economy is about to. With regards to finding rational solutions to the coming problems, that is actually more important in the immediate future than supply constraints.

Oil is the fuse, debt bubble is the bomb.
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Unread postby MD » Sun 28 Sep 2008, 04:55:24

MD wrote:
RdSnt wrote:
arretium wrote:I think even once gas hits $5 a gallon, we'll still have "time" to figure something out. Remember, production is declining at 3-8% a year, most likely 5%. It's not going to go off a cliff, unless SA is more fubared than any of us, even Matt Simmons, realizes.



Petroleum supply won't go off a cliff but the US economy is about to. With regards to finding rational solutions to the coming problems, that is actually more important in the immediate future than supply constraints.

Oil is the fuse, debt bubble is the bomb.


*ahem*

bumpity bump
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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