Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Abrupt Climate Change

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Synapsid » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 12:09:45

Tanada,

Canute was pointing out that the king is human too, and even he can't stop the tide.

Fixate not on secular power is the message.
Synapsid
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 20:21:50

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 13:06:47

Satori wrote:"I see nothing just about the confiscation of wealth at the barrel end of a gun"

what if the wealth was illegally or immorally obtained ?


Whose definition of immorality do we get to use? Gandhi? Buddha? Jesus the Christ? Barack Obama?

Morality is subject to whims and opinions, which are always a dangerous guide to follow.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 13390
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 13:22:55

Not to stray to far off topic, but it has always struck me as a bit hypocritical those whose would decry moral relativism or dismiss morality altogether. When in fact if you or I are treated unjustly or unfairly we immediately know it and complain. Seems we cannot ever fully get away from morality because it is part of interacting as humans. So Cog weigh the right of denizens of rich countries right to maintain their wealth against the inhumane living conditions of millions if not billions and also against the urgent need to refrain from further damaging the Earth and its life support systems and the horrific outcome of an Earth unable to support human and other life forms.
“For a moment they saw the nations of the dead, and, before they joined them, scraps of the untainted sky." -- E.M. Forster
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6393
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 02:36:52

Good point, ol. IIRC, there was a study recently that even 'lower' animals could recognize (and disapprove of) unfair treatment of another individual when they see it. (Perhaps that means that conservatives have yet to reach the level of morality already attained by squid? :lol: :lol: )
User avatar
dohboi
Master
Master
 
Posts: 15586
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby ozcad » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 04:39:44

dohboi wrote:...conservatives have yet to reach the level of morality already attained by squid?

A pack animal e.g. dog needs to be more aware than a cat does of the intentions (desires) of the other dogs in order to cooperatively (hunt).
The cat is a full-spectrum-capability hunter, able to climb trees, jump well and quickly kill their prey. Dogs are less capable and need to operate as a pack, nipping at the prey's heels, grinding it down. If they don't cooperate, there is no food.
The degree to which animals recognize injustice is probably related to how much they are a pack animal rather that a loner. It is hard to imagine a loner animal exhibiting much empathy or altruism.
User avatar
ozcad
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri 03 Jul 2015, 12:26:35
Location: Australia

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 04:49:09

dohboi wrote:Good point, ol. IIRC, there was a study recently that even 'lower' animals could recognize (and disapprove of) unfair treatment of another individual when they see it. (Perhaps that means that conservatives have yet to reach the level of morality already attained by squid? :lol: :lol: )

:lol: :lol:
“For a moment they saw the nations of the dead, and, before they joined them, scraps of the untainted sky." -- E.M. Forster
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6393
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 05:45:47

dohboi wrote:Good point, ol. IIRC, there was a study recently that even 'lower' animals could recognize (and disapprove of) unfair treatment of another individual when they see it. (Perhaps that means that conservatives have yet to reach the level of morality already attained by squid? :lol: :lol: )


Or it is a case of 'research' where blatant anthropomorphism is done to try and score political advantage.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 13390
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Cog » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 06:49:47

There are many people who wish to impose their morality on others. Leftists often confuse feelings with the law. They are separate entities for good reason.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 08:19:32

Tanada wrote:
dohboi wrote:Good point, ol. IIRC, there was a study recently that even 'lower' animals could recognize (and disapprove of) unfair treatment of another individual when they see it. (Perhaps that means that conservatives have yet to reach the level of morality already attained by squid? :lol: :lol: )


Or it is a case of 'research' where blatant anthropomorphism is done to try and score political advantage.


The only one making a anthropomorphism here is Dohboi in his endless attack on others that he tries to cast as subhuman. Typical propaganda tactic, dehumanize your opponent and turn the mob on them.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 8127
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 08:20:53

Cog wrote:There are many people who wish to impose their morality on others. Leftists often confuse feelings with the law. They are separate entities for good reason.


It's far from just a left agenda issue. Simply look at the abortion debate.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 8127
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:40:23

Whose definition of immorality do we get to use?


Your own. Although, better phrased, Whose assessment of integrity and truth.

Much of the propaganda we are subjected to is intended to drive a wedge between your own assessment of right and wrong and your acting on it.

It's more of the same attempts to convince you, you can't trust your own eyes, your own perception, your own judgment.

To prevent you from acting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxlhToVMfbQ

What makes you think it didn't already happen? Perhaps before you were even born.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
User avatar
Cid_Yama
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6581
Joined: Sun 27 May 2007, 02:00:00
Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 18:27:44

This may be the study: http://www.naturalnews.com/046691_anima ... avior.html

But I was wrong. Many conservatives probably DO have the morality of dogs (but perhaps that's being too generous? :) ):

Dogs recognize fairness, but don't care

... while dogs are able to recognize unfairness, they have no qualms about exploiting it in the hopes of getting a greater reward...


Sounds pretty close to 'greed is good' rightwinger (im-)morality to me! :)
User avatar
dohboi
Master
Master
 
Posts: 15586
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 18:43:34

So now conservatives are "dogs"?
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 8127
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby vox_mundi » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 19:04:54

Study finds potential instability in Atlantic Ocean water circulation system

Image

One of the world's largest ocean circulation systems may not be as stable as today's weather models predict, according to a new study.

In fact, changes in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC)—the same deep-water ocean current featured in the movie "The Day After Tomorrow"—could occur quite abruptly, in geologic terms, the study says. The research appears in the Jan. 4 online edition of the journal Science Advances.

"We show that the possibility of a collapsed AMOC under global warming is hugely underestimated," said Wei Liu, a postdoctoral associate in the Department of Geology and Geophysics at Yale University and lead author of the study. Liu began the research when he was a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and continued it at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, prior to coming to Yale.

"In current models, AMOC is systematically biased to be in a stable regime," Liu said. "A bias-corrected model predicts a future AMOC collapse with prominent cooling over the northern North Atlantic and neighboring areas. This has enormous implications for regional and global climate change."

A collapse of the AMOC system, in Liu's model, would cool the Northern Atlantic Ocean, cause a spreading of Arctic sea ice, and move tropical Atlantic rain belts farther south.

"Overlooked possibility of a collapsed Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation in warming climate," Science Advances 04 Jan 2017: Vol. 3, no. 1, e1601666. DOI: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/ ... 01666.full

Abstract:

Changes in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) are moderate in most climate model projections under increasing greenhouse gas forcing. This intermodel consensus may be an artifact of common model biases that favor a stable AMOC.

Observationally based freshwater budget analyses suggest that the AMOC is in an unstable regime susceptible for large changes in response to perturbations.

By correcting the model biases, we show that the AMOC collapses 300 years after the atmospheric CO2 concentration is abruptly doubled from the 1990 level.

Compared to an uncorrected model, the AMOC collapse brings about large, markedly different climate responses: a prominent cooling over the northern North Atlantic and neighboring areas, sea ice increases over the Greenland-Iceland-Norwegian seas and to the south of Greenland, and a significant southward rain-belt migration over the tropical Atlantic.

Our results highlight the need to develop dynamical metrics to constrain models and the importance of reducing model biases in long-term climate projection.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
User avatar
vox_mundi
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: Wed 27 Sep 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 07:04:05

vox_mundi wrote: Study finds potential instability in Atlantic Ocean water circulation system

Image

One of the world's largest ocean circulation systems may not be as stable as today's weather models predict, according to a new study.

In fact, changes in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC)—the same deep-water ocean current featured in the movie "The Day After Tomorrow"—could occur quite abruptly, in geologic terms, the study says. The research appears in the Jan. 4 online edition of the journal Science Advances.

"We show that the possibility of a collapsed AMOC under global warming is hugely underestimated," said Wei Liu, a postdoctoral associate in the Department of Geology and Geophysics at Yale University and lead author of the study. Liu began the research when he was a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and continued it at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, prior to coming to Yale.

"In current models, AMOC is systematically biased to be in a stable regime," Liu said. "A bias-corrected model predicts a future AMOC collapse with prominent cooling over the northern North Atlantic and neighboring areas. This has enormous implications for regional and global climate change."

A collapse of the AMOC system, in Liu's model, would cool the Northern Atlantic Ocean, cause a spreading of Arctic sea ice, and move tropical Atlantic rain belts farther south.

"Overlooked possibility of a collapsed Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation in warming climate," Science Advances 04 Jan 2017: Vol. 3, no. 1, e1601666. DOI: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/ ... 01666.full

Abstract:

Changes in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) are moderate in most climate model projections under increasing greenhouse gas forcing. This intermodel consensus may be an artifact of common model biases that favor a stable AMOC.

Observationally based freshwater budget analyses suggest that the AMOC is in an unstable regime susceptible for large changes in response to perturbations.

By correcting the model biases, we show that the AMOC collapses 300 years after the atmospheric CO2 concentration is abruptly doubled from the 1990 level.

Compared to an uncorrected model, the AMOC collapse brings about large, markedly different climate responses: a prominent cooling over the northern North Atlantic and neighboring areas, sea ice increases over the Greenland-Iceland-Norwegian seas and to the south of Greenland, and a significant southward rain-belt migration over the tropical Atlantic.

Our results highlight the need to develop dynamical metrics to constrain models and the importance of reducing model biases in long-term climate projection.

Really Vox? You do understand that when a scientist uses the word "Potential" they mean they don't know and want more research grant money so they can tinker with their models more at somebody else's expense. And their "Potential" was for one or two "Centuries" out Which is what "could occur quite abruptly, in geologic terms," means.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7041
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 08:27:43

More bs from vt. Why don't you give it a rest. Or read up a bit on what is known as 'scientific reticence.'

If anything, scientists are constantly understating how dire things are.
User avatar
dohboi
Master
Master
 
Posts: 15586
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 08:30:55

Newf...yeah, the truth hurts sometimes, don't it!

Of course, that would make pro-nuke conservatives...wait for it...ATOMIC DOGS!

(Queue the music:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyS9M8T03A
User avatar
dohboi
Master
Master
 
Posts: 15586
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 08:47:31

Yes, that is what I discovered from reading up on this including links provided by posters here. The updated science on abrupt climate change informs of extremely rapid and abrupt changes that have occurred in Earth history. Also the models are not factoring in feedbacks because in some cases they cannot. Feedbacks can cause exponential change which we seem now to be observing. Finally, political pressure has borne down on scientists to quell more pessimistic extreme conclusions. So all this has been discussed at length in some of these threads. It begs the question of whether V is conveniently ignoring the information in these threads
“For a moment they saw the nations of the dead, and, before they joined them, scraps of the untainted sky." -- E.M. Forster
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6393
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby Cog » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 09:14:04

May, could, probably, likely. These are the words of the fast crash climate doomer.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: Abrupt Climate Change

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 09:17:10

Cog wrote:May, could, probably, likely. These are the words of the fast crash climate doomer.

Are you baiting us to make some prediction and with full certainty? Cause, I am not biting 8)
“For a moment they saw the nations of the dead, and, before they joined them, scraps of the untainted sky." -- E.M. Forster
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6393
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Environment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests