[Ludi]

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

Pstarr is "on the land" as in he is a landowner and lives on his own land, so, by some reckoning, he is one of "the Masters."

But I'm a permacultural newbie also (only been studying it a decade, practicing less than that), so I probably don't understand the lingo. I don't recall seeing the term "The Masters" in my permie books, but it might be in some I haven't read (which would be a lot).



I'm not sure Pstarr is very interested in communicating much of the time, at least not with us here on the board. Hence the "you wouldn't understand" which is similar to the language vision-master uses. Maybe we need to consume more magical plants, or something, to be able to understand these concepts.

[SilentRunning]

I've been having a good time with my daughter going over my land and planning what to plant and where. We are going to be putting in an orchard in the spring. I have also been surveying our woodlands, and figuring out what to harvest in order to encourage long term sustainable maple sugar production as well as a revitalized old growth forest. It gives me a good feeling that I am starting something that will very likely benefit my children and future generations - and that both my kids are interested in seeing it succeed.

Yes, but the doomer in me says "best laid plans of mice and men often go astray".

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

That's why I say the human element is the weakest link. If we were all 2,000 year old elves tending to Rivendell, that's one thing, but keeping a family food forest going generation after generation, especially into the chaotic future we're facing in the 21st century and beyond, well, that's gonna be really hard.

Considering the way my daughter is growing up, I can't even count on her to continue whatever I start. These things just are not directly in your control.

MY kids are in their mid 20s and we've been through the normal teen rebellion phase. I was deeply impressed with my daughter when she started her own garden on a plot of land owned by a friend. I had not even talked to her about peak oil and my own plans - but after I saw that she was prepping on her own, we had some great conversations.

I understand that times may be very hard ahead - but without some sort of long term vision I don't see any chance for success.

[Ludi]

I understand that times may be very hard ahead - but without some sort of long term vision I don't see any chance for success.

Do you mean a long term vision for yourself and your family? Or do you mean a sort of vision for the world which will be imposed on other people somehow? Or are you saying if any given person doesn't have a long term vision they are not likely to successfully survive?

Just wanting a little clarification. Thanks.

[mos6507]

Something is wrong. What is that?

This good enough for ya?

How about this?



I got it. It's someone else's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Who benefits? I would say it is the folks who own the timberlands, the mines, the industrial farms, the giant processing plants, the factories.

What's the end goal of all that production? Takes two to tango.

How did this happen? The paleolithic revolution, the Enclosure Act, the fencing of the rangelands. Concentration of power. Ownership of grains. Standing armies. Cowered populace. I could go on and on.

Let me guess. Evil people who aren't part of your definition of "we"? They aren't really human, right? None of the greed that drove them is a part of "we"? They were born evil, right?

I'm waiting for you to pull a ReverseEngineer here and call for the "death of the pigmen".

Was that a start?

I'd say it's just an attempt to divide humanity into two camps in order to absolve yourself of personal responsibility for perpetuating BAU. We're all brainwashed victims led into our McMansions and SUVs by the banksters and the corporatists. Oh, poor us, the downtrodden masses. How can we be expected to express freewill when those Big Macs taste soo good? Our victimhood is predecided. That is, unless we're lucky enough to live behind the "redwood curtain", in which case we can whine about how downtrodden "we" are from the perch of a bucolic sanctuary.

Sorry, man, I stand by this graphic.

[Ludi]

Sorry, man, I stand by this graphic.

Yep, we're back to our own little private parts.

[Narz]

Thanks Ludi, finally got around to watching the movie.

All seems so distant for me though living in a suburban apartment complex which I'll be moving out of in May, my significant other thinks she'll be getting a job in Brooklyn (speaking of Brooklyn) soon so she wants to move there (how we can afford it I'm not sure, we'll probably have to co-habit, which is fine with me as long as I can get my own room for a change). I don't really want to move to Brooklyn but I don't want to abandon my daughter either.

[mos6507]

The Tragedy of the Commons is a myth

BS. What kind of world do you think we're living in?

and there are endless examples of complex societies living in harmony with their ecologies.

Considering that we're entering a mass extinction event of our own making, your "countless examples" don't amount to squat. The jury's coming in on homo sapiens, sir. What our theoretical capabilities are don't matter. What our aggregate demonstrative behavior is doing, that's what matters.

You know there is a simple solution

There is no simple solution otherwise it would have happened already. Whenever anybody throws out phrases like that, I know they are full of sh*t. Forgive me for having a short-fuse, but I'm just burnt out on all this simplification that some people have, where they have "THE SOLUTION"(TM). There is no simple solution because people don't all get together and march in time, and that's what we'd need to stop this train-wreck, a global epiphany, basically.

they are entities under specific edits engineered by greedy corrupt individuals

Greedy individuals are "us" if you want to step back and look at homo sapiens. They are not a separate species. They are not subhumans. They are not sociopaths. They are US. You read The Oil Drum, don't you? The psychological angle has been explored quite thoroughly by Nate. It's not so easy to just brush aside.

You have me confused with someone else. I have spent a lifetime in professional sustainable development. I know who is wrong.

I thought you were talking about WE? Now you're talking about I (meaning you, the individual). If you want to talk about where humanity is headed, your anecdotal situation is meaningless. We're talking about the aggregate impact of humanity. If you're some higher being, and 99% of the rest of us are not, who gives a rat's ass? So you can stop feeling guilty for the planet dying? Big deal.

[mos6507]

What annoys me is this: there is this cute mostly unstated assumption that it is a wonderous new radical innovation that will save the world.

Wasn't it last year or so you said the only reason you were here was for sh*ts and giggles? Then why all this talk about solutions (aka death to the pigmen) and non-solutions (permaculture)?

[Ludi]

My main problem with solutions like permaculture is they are not being implemented much. Of course they are less likely to be implemented if people make it their business to go around saying how useless they are, etc etc as Pstarr does in every conversation about permaculture. I'm not sure why it's so important for him to do this, but it is, apparently. A fun hobby, I guess.

[Ludi]

Thanks Ludi, finally got around to watching the movie.

All seems so distant for me though living in a suburban apartment complex which I'll be moving out of in May, my significant other thinks she'll be getting a job in Brooklyn (speaking of Brooklyn) soon so she wants to move there (how we can afford it I'm not sure, we'll probably have to co-habit, which is fine with me as long as I can get my own room for a change). I don't really want to move to Brooklyn but I don't want to abandon my daughter either.

Yeah, it's definitely a problem for city-dwellers, because it's hard to overcome the limitations of being in the city and not having your own yard. And with most of the population living in cities, permaculture seems an unreachable goal. But people who really want to do this manage to get together with other people and form community gardens. There's a lot of "waste" space in many cities (not so much around NYC) that could be turned to growing areas.

http://www.communitygarden.org/learn/st ... garden.php