A Farm for the Future

[Ludi]

Just talking in message boards will not change the farming system.

Nope, that's why I encourage people to try some food-growing themselves.

[Sixstrings]

We Americans are a herd animal. We only like to do what the neighbors are doing, and only if the neighbors aren't "weird."

That's true. I live in suburbia. I have never, ever, seen any veggies in anyone's back yard -- much less the front. Orange trees, grapefruit and whatnot ya.. maybe even bananas or plantains. But a real food garden? I've never seen one.

[Ludi]

But a real food garden? I've never seen one.

Except your own, right?

[mos6507]

I've been having a good time with my daughter going over my land and planning what to plant and where. We are going to be putting in an orchard in the spring. I have also been surveying our woodlands, and figuring out what to harvest in order to encourage long term sustainable maple sugar production as well as a revitalized old growth forest. It gives me a good feeling that I am starting something that will very likely benefit my children and future generations - and that both my kids are interested in seeing it succeed.

Yes, but the doomer in me says "best laid plans of mice and men often go astray".

For instance, when I went on my "Peak oil pilgrimage" I visited John "Solar Tractor" Howe, someone who has contributed to The Oil Drum on occasion. He's kind of a peak oil second stringer. Anyway, he told me how he has sort of a weird yin and yang situation with his kids. One of them is on board, and the other is totally BAU.

This kind of hearkens back to Ibon's hyperindividualism thread. There has to be some balance between following your path in life and some sense of greater duty, like a multi-generational mission-statement. I'm sure a great many small farms were sold to developers once the old farmer died off and the kids, who simply couldn't give a shit, decided to cash out.

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

That's why I say the human element is the weakest link. If we were all 2,000 year old elves tending to Rivendell, that's one thing, but keeping a family food forest going generation after generation, especially into the chaotic future we're facing in the 21st century and beyond, well, that's gonna be really hard.

Considering the way my daughter is growing up, I can't even count on her to continue whatever I start. These things just are not directly in your control.

[mos6507]

Not being a tecno-cornucopian, about the only way I can see that it would be possible for people to take a significant amount of CO2 out of the atmosphere is to stop cutting trees and start reforesting areas that were once forested. In order for these areas to still produce food the way kill both birds with the same stone is the permaculture/food forest route.

I like to call permaculture terraforming, since that's kind of what it is. It's reconstructing an ecosystem from the ground up, one that may not match what was there before, but strikes a balance between agriculture (which is using the land only for us) and a nature preserve (which is only for nature). In theory, this is something that should be applied everywhere, reverse desertification, create new milder microclimates, etc..., and with 7+ billion people potentially able to dig those holes, the potential is enormous. But there are a lot of cultural hoops to jump through for this to take root.

Things like the Avatar 1M tree initiative are but a drop in the bucket.

Permaculture has had 30+ years to deliver its message and hasn't been able to really connect and hit critical mass. Damned if I knew the right formula to sell the concept. People will be more likely to wait until they're cupboards are bare and then plant survival gardens of potatoes and beans than they will sit down and plan out a forest succession plan years ahead of famine conditions.

The whole perennial thing seems to not map easily to human short-term thinking. Sure, some people are orchardists, but people just don't think of trees as a staple source, which is likely to persist until everybody's scrambling to process acorns (assuming there are any oaks left that haven't been cut down to keep people from freezing).

[SeaGypsy]

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

This syndrome is largely a product of surplus. In olden times, if you didn't get apprenticed by your parent or a relative, you would likely perish. These days kids say "Up Yours! and give you the finger because they can. A while back you could try that but very likely end up back at the family threshhold begging forgiveness. It is well known that rebellion in teens is rare in poor communities and families compared to middle classes. Rebellion is a luxury which strangely enough is usually purchased by the parents.

[mos6507]

This syndrome is largely a product of surplus. In olden times, if you didn't get apprenticed by your parent or a relative, you would likely perish. These days kids say "Up Yours! and give you the finger because they can. A while back you could try that but very likely end up back at the family threshhold begging forgiveness. It is well known that rebellion in teens is rare in poor communities and families compared to middle classes. Rebellion is a luxury which strangely enough is usually purchased by the parents.

Even though it may sound like I'm contradicting myself, I actually think that luxury is a good thing. Choice is a good thing. Freedom is a good thing. I don't relish the idea of my daughter spending her life at the doomstead because she has no better options. I don't even like that I'm stuck living like the 40 year old virgin in order to stay out of home debt. What I would PREFER is for each generation to want to carry on the family legacy voluntarily, because they think it's the right thing to do.

[SeaGypsy]

There are traditional legacies which do not revolve around relinquished freedom. Bard craft (entertaining, comedy, acting, singing, dancing, etc.), scrimshaw (jewelery making, intricate carving), farm and handyperson skills; plus many modern variations on the themes of sustainable living like natural medicine, permaculture, recycling innovation etc. Many crafts and skills can be taught to children which will aid their mobility and freedom in a post collapse world.

[Ludi]

I don't have children but I'm practicing permaculture anyway. Trying to establish permanent food plants which might benefit my household in years to come and after us, whoever might happen to come along and find them. True, someone might cut them down in the future for some stupid reason, but that isn't my problem now. I'm doing this because it interests me and I think it is the right thing to do. Plants which are appropriate for the locale should continue to live and produce without human care, so intending a legacy of care into the future isn't strictly necessary. People will probably need to eat in the future and I hope to establish food which will be waiting for them when they need it.

[pstarr]

I planted an orchard three years ago (long after I became an active member of this site.) I now have about 10 apple trees, 2 plums, 2 pears, 2 cherries, 3 peaches, 5 walnuts, 2 hazel nuts, a dozen native huckleberries and am about to plant 25 blueberries. I am now installing a 250 sq. ft. greenhouse which might include aquaculture and quail/rabbits (its nice outside--about 60 degrees and sunny). Next is a chicken coop, Kubota BX25, and finally 1,000 sq. ft of grain.

I will use all the tools, fuel, and electricity at my disposal to create a self-supporting suburban homestead. I will call on all sorts of natural and man-made, even chemical tools to improve my yields but not at the expense of song birds and wildlife I love. I plan on setting up a composting toilet to capture my phosphorous. I have no agenda, agricultural or environmental. I am not doing this to save the world or to set an example, rather it is an investment in good cheap food, and an insurance in uncertain times.

Few folks here or anywhere have this luxury, and out of respect and decency, I do not promote my plans around here heavily. I find all the help I need on Gardenweb.com etc. No need to confuse issues. I will say this though: everybody has the right to make their own livelihood (from the Middle English livelyhed, liflihed, liveliness, energy, vigor)). We certainly have the appropriate neat/kewl/digital monitor and control technology to make this possible, simple, pleasant, easy, convenient, and eminently successful. We could have an agrarian paradise as Jefferson had hoped. But we allowed the Masters to force us off the land into consumer ghettos where most are now helpless and hopeless. I do not see that changing ever without land redistrubtion and thus a violent revolution.

[Ludi]

We could have an agrarian paradise as Jefferson had hoped. But we allowed the Masters to force us off the land into consumer ghettos where most are now helpless and hopeless. I do not see that changing ever without land redistrubtion and thus a violent revolution.

Probably not. Even if folks initially tried to do it non-violently, it would probably become violent at some point. But all we can do is our own little private parts to do the right thing (as we see it).

[mos6507]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

[pstarr]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

I am glad you asked, because you probably wouldn't understand. You are only a permacultural newbie

[davep]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

I am glad you asked, because you probably wouldn't understand. You are only a permacultural newbie

Original permaculture was about perennial crops. Then it changed to include zoning etc. Also, your response to mos's question doesn't actually answer his question.

[PrestonSturges]

I gathered some mulberry cuttings today and even found a couple seedlings I was able to uproot by hand. They are all in pots now and I gave them a dose of liquid root stimulator.

I noticed these trees last year in the scrubby area of an office park, where they were yielding buckets and buckets of berries.

[Ludi]

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

Pstarr is "on the land" as in he is a landowner and lives on his own land, so, by some reckoning, he is one of "the Masters."

But I'm a permacultural newbie also (only been studying it a decade, practicing less than that), so I probably don't understand the lingo. I don't recall seeing the term "The Masters" in my permie books, but it might be in some I haven't read (which would be a lot).



I'm not sure Pstarr is very interested in communicating much of the time, at least not with us here on the board. Hence the "you wouldn't understand" which is similar to the language vision-master uses. Maybe we need to consume more magical plants, or something, to be able to understand these concepts.

[SilentRunning]

I've been having a good time with my daughter going over my land and planning what to plant and where. We are going to be putting in an orchard in the spring. I have also been surveying our woodlands, and figuring out what to harvest in order to encourage long term sustainable maple sugar production as well as a revitalized old growth forest. It gives me a good feeling that I am starting something that will very likely benefit my children and future generations - and that both my kids are interested in seeing it succeed.

Yes, but the doomer in me says "best laid plans of mice and men often go astray".

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

That's why I say the human element is the weakest link. If we were all 2,000 year old elves tending to Rivendell, that's one thing, but keeping a family food forest going generation after generation, especially into the chaotic future we're facing in the 21st century and beyond, well, that's gonna be really hard.

Considering the way my daughter is growing up, I can't even count on her to continue whatever I start. These things just are not directly in your control.

MY kids are in their mid 20s and we've been through the normal teen rebellion phase. I was deeply impressed with my daughter when she started her own garden on a plot of land owned by a friend. I had not even talked to her about peak oil and my own plans - but after I saw that she was prepping on her own, we had some great conversations.

I understand that times may be very hard ahead - but without some sort of long term vision I don't see any chance for success.

[Ludi]

I understand that times may be very hard ahead - but without some sort of long term vision I don't see any chance for success.

Do you mean a long term vision for yourself and your family? Or do you mean a sort of vision for the world which will be imposed on other people somehow? Or are you saying if any given person doesn't have a long term vision they are not likely to successfully survive?

Just wanting a little clarification. Thanks.

[pstarr]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

I am glad you asked, because you probably wouldn't understand. You are only a permacultural newbie

Original permaculture was about perennial crops. Then it changed to include zoning etc. Also, your response to mos's question doesn't actually answer his question.

I didn't have the time and the answer is involved. I'll start. We know that hunter-gatherers did have leisure time. I am not an anarcho-primitivist (at least I don't think so) and I will not to idealize Ludditism. But common sense and a detached mind will tell you that a burning through our planet, fossil fuels, and the atmosphere for 9 hours employment/commute, another 2/3 for home/house/family work, and endless traffic jams for entertainment/visiting is not necessary. Something is wrong. What is that?

What is the point of "permaculture?" Is it to raise organic healthy food, to farm sustainably/lightly on the earth, reduce C02 emissions, to free the practitioner from drudgery? Is it for food security, freedom, independence, novelty, attitude, to be part of a movement? I don't know. You tell me. What is the point?

I do know this: I love to be with the earth, part of living systems, close to nature, in ecologic balance with my surroundings. We have agricultural tools, appropriate technology, smart machines, micro-manufacturing, solar energy to free us to live in our communities without the car culture. I love museums and fine art and food, but I hate the striving in cities. We need balance and I have it in my little corner of the planet. It barely existed in the numerous cities and suburbs I lived in. Why? Follow the money. Who benefits? I would say it is the folks who own the timberlands, the mines, the industrial farms, the giant processing plants, the factories.

How did this happen? The paleolithic revolution, the Enclosure Act, the fencing of the rangelands. Concentration of power. Ownership of grains. Standing armies. Cowered populace. I could go on and on.

Here is a good place to start: The Story of Your Enslavement

Was that a start?

[mos6507]

Something is wrong. What is that?

This good enough for ya?

How about this?



I got it. It's someone else's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Who benefits? I would say it is the folks who own the timberlands, the mines, the industrial farms, the giant processing plants, the factories.

What's the end goal of all that production? Takes two to tango.

How did this happen? The paleolithic revolution, the Enclosure Act, the fencing of the rangelands. Concentration of power. Ownership of grains. Standing armies. Cowered populace. I could go on and on.

Let me guess. Evil people who aren't part of your definition of "we"? They aren't really human, right? None of the greed that drove them is a part of "we"? They were born evil, right?

I'm waiting for you to pull a ReverseEngineer here and call for the "death of the pigmen".

Was that a start?

I'd say it's just an attempt to divide humanity into two camps in order to absolve yourself of personal responsibility for perpetuating BAU. We're all brainwashed victims led into our McMansions and SUVs by the banksters and the corporatists. Oh, poor us, the downtrodden masses. How can we be expected to express freewill when those Big Macs taste soo good? Our victimhood is predecided. That is, unless we're lucky enough to live behind the "redwood curtain", in which case we can whine about how downtrodden "we" are from the perch of a bucolic sanctuary.

Sorry, man, I stand by this graphic.