[Ludi]

Why not eat insects?

Sure, folks can eat insects and other small critters. Personally, I have only eaten earthworms and they were quite nasty, with a very strong earthworm flavor and smell.

As mentioned in the video, changing to sustainable food-growing might mean having to radically change our diets, which is very hard for many people. People would often rather starve to death than eat something they don't consider food.

People here have doubts as to the ability for industrial nations to radically overhaul their food supply upon realization of an impending famine. Personally, i'm slightly more optimistic, but scientists need to sound the call.

Scientists have been sounding the call for decades. Why not let them off the hook a bit and sound the call yourself by raising and eating insects and sharing that information with people? Personally, I find people actually implementing the techniques they advocate to be about 1 million times more interesting and persuasive than people who just put ideas out there for someone else to implement.

[Ludi]

Suburban permaculture: http://permaculture-media-download.blog ... ntary.html

[cephalotus]

In Germany the "primary sector" (this one includes farming, forestry, fishery and mining) consumes roughly 1% (one percent) of the primary energy.

This does not include processing and transportation of the food and producing fertilizers, pesticides or tractors...

So if we eat less meat, if we stop throwing away roughly 50%(!) of our food, if we stop transporting potatoes from North Germany to South Italy for washing and processing and than back again, if farmers use more organic fertilizers and less or no pesticides, would it really be impossible to feed our population easily and still use tractors and machinery? Those can also run on biofuels, a few years ago the use of biodiesel from rapesead was quite common and this rapeseed could have been processed in small local oil mills. (todaqy it is taxed like fossil fuel so the farmers switched back to the still cheaper fossil options)
Fertilizer is made from methane and if you still need a bit of it, why not use biomethane or even RE-methane? (http://www.solar-fuel.net/).

I would like to see more organic farming (I try to buy that stuff today) and I would like to see an end to meat that is produced in "animal factories".
Of course this will come at a cost, but today Germans use only 11% of their income on food (and lots of this money goes to processed food which is way more expensive than tha basic stuff). People are used to it, that they can buy 2-3 pounds of meat or 5 pounds of butter or 20l milk at the price of one our of work at an average salary, so I assume that it will take some time for people to realise that the food of the future might be a bit more expensive than today.

On the other hand people spend 2,50€ on a frozen "ready-to-heat"-pizza while it would take 0,20€ of organic flour, 1,50€ of some pieces of organic ham and cheese, 0,30€ for some mushrooms, 0,05€ for yeast, 0,05€ for sugar, salt and spices and some organic tomatoes at 0,40€ (or window grown) = 2,50 Euro altogether to get a way, way, way more superior pizza with mostly organic grown stuff.

In Germany the by far most expensive "organic" stuff is meat, even eggs are affordable (conventional= 0,10€/egg, organic = 0,20€/egg). But not so many years ago it was common to eat large portions of meat only on Sundays, so maybe 20-30kg meat per person and year would be ok and affordable even at 3-5 times higher prices than meat from "animal factories".
Today the average German eats 83kg meat per year, the average US American 127kg. The average person in Bangladesh on the other side eats 3kg meat/year.
http://www.vgt.ch/news/100903-fleischko ... tional.htm

So in my opinion Europe can easily feed its people in a world with rare oil. The farming machinery and the farms do not really use so much oil and most of it could be substituted with biodiesel that can be produced locally from rapeseed.
If some would try permaculture with more labour and less machines, why not. If you can find a market for it and make a living of it. (so far the permaculture people seem to make the money mainly from selling books and tickets to permaculture events, not from selling food, but maybe I'm not up to date here)
In my opinion it would have lots of benefits of farming would become more organic and if animals would be treated like living things again. I assume that this system will be less productive (so far organic farming has lower yields compared to conventional farming and animals take a lot longer to grow), but we do not need todays productivity if we would throw away less food and eat less meat.

It's quite easy for everyone to help this process NOW. Buy organic food and buy less meat, but "organic" meat. It will cost more (1,5x to 5x times more here in Germany) but you could save this money if you don't throw away some of your stuff and if you buy the basic materials instead of processed fast food. Maybe you can even grow some vegetables or spices for yourself.

Just talking in message boards will not change the farming system.

best regards

[scas]

Scientists have been sounding the call for decades. Why not let them off the hook a bit and sound the call yourself by raising and eating insects and sharing that information with people? Personally, I find people actually implementing the techniques they advocate to be about 1 million times more interesting and persuasive than people who just put ideas out there for someone else to implement.

I plan to experiment with crickets and grubs. I have red wigglers but they hardly seem nutritious. I imagine that my insect-farm will probably end up as chicken food for the most part. As for letting scientist off the hook? I would like it if they would be more blunt and tell us climate change will cause gigafamines and kill many in the coming years. Ramp up the fear to stir a response. I try to spread the message as much as I can - it seems that young adults and children are the most activist about climate change - all the ideas I do now are from what I've heard from others.

No grudges that the adults mortgaged away my future for their benefit though.... well, maybe a little resentment.

[Ludi]

well, maybe a little resentment.

Resentment is appropriate, especially if you're trying to live differently.

Redwigglers are supposed to be high quality protein, but personally I think they are better food for chickens than people. I'm also going to be raising Black Soldier Fly larvae for fish food. No doubt they are edible by humans, but - ew, yuck, maggots!

[Ludi]

Just talking in message boards will not change the farming system.

Nope, that's why I encourage people to try some food-growing themselves.

[Sixstrings]

We Americans are a herd animal. We only like to do what the neighbors are doing, and only if the neighbors aren't "weird."

That's true. I live in suburbia. I have never, ever, seen any veggies in anyone's back yard -- much less the front. Orange trees, grapefruit and whatnot ya.. maybe even bananas or plantains. But a real food garden? I've never seen one.

[Ludi]

But a real food garden? I've never seen one.

Except your own, right?

[mos6507]

I've been having a good time with my daughter going over my land and planning what to plant and where. We are going to be putting in an orchard in the spring. I have also been surveying our woodlands, and figuring out what to harvest in order to encourage long term sustainable maple sugar production as well as a revitalized old growth forest. It gives me a good feeling that I am starting something that will very likely benefit my children and future generations - and that both my kids are interested in seeing it succeed.

Yes, but the doomer in me says "best laid plans of mice and men often go astray".

For instance, when I went on my "Peak oil pilgrimage" I visited John "Solar Tractor" Howe, someone who has contributed to The Oil Drum on occasion. He's kind of a peak oil second stringer. Anyway, he told me how he has sort of a weird yin and yang situation with his kids. One of them is on board, and the other is totally BAU.

This kind of hearkens back to Ibon's hyperindividualism thread. There has to be some balance between following your path in life and some sense of greater duty, like a multi-generational mission-statement. I'm sure a great many small farms were sold to developers once the old farmer died off and the kids, who simply couldn't give a shit, decided to cash out.

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

That's why I say the human element is the weakest link. If we were all 2,000 year old elves tending to Rivendell, that's one thing, but keeping a family food forest going generation after generation, especially into the chaotic future we're facing in the 21st century and beyond, well, that's gonna be really hard.

Considering the way my daughter is growing up, I can't even count on her to continue whatever I start. These things just are not directly in your control.

[mos6507]

Not being a tecno-cornucopian, about the only way I can see that it would be possible for people to take a significant amount of CO2 out of the atmosphere is to stop cutting trees and start reforesting areas that were once forested. In order for these areas to still produce food the way kill both birds with the same stone is the permaculture/food forest route.

I like to call permaculture terraforming, since that's kind of what it is. It's reconstructing an ecosystem from the ground up, one that may not match what was there before, but strikes a balance between agriculture (which is using the land only for us) and a nature preserve (which is only for nature). In theory, this is something that should be applied everywhere, reverse desertification, create new milder microclimates, etc..., and with 7+ billion people potentially able to dig those holes, the potential is enormous. But there are a lot of cultural hoops to jump through for this to take root.

Things like the Avatar 1M tree initiative are but a drop in the bucket.

Permaculture has had 30+ years to deliver its message and hasn't been able to really connect and hit critical mass. Damned if I knew the right formula to sell the concept. People will be more likely to wait until they're cupboards are bare and then plant survival gardens of potatoes and beans than they will sit down and plan out a forest succession plan years ahead of famine conditions.

The whole perennial thing seems to not map easily to human short-term thinking. Sure, some people are orchardists, but people just don't think of trees as a staple source, which is likely to persist until everybody's scrambling to process acorns (assuming there are any oaks left that haven't been cut down to keep people from freezing).

[SeaGypsy]

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

This syndrome is largely a product of surplus. In olden times, if you didn't get apprenticed by your parent or a relative, you would likely perish. These days kids say "Up Yours! and give you the finger because they can. A while back you could try that but very likely end up back at the family threshhold begging forgiveness. It is well known that rebellion in teens is rare in poor communities and families compared to middle classes. Rebellion is a luxury which strangely enough is usually purchased by the parents.

[mos6507]

This syndrome is largely a product of surplus. In olden times, if you didn't get apprenticed by your parent or a relative, you would likely perish. These days kids say "Up Yours! and give you the finger because they can. A while back you could try that but very likely end up back at the family threshhold begging forgiveness. It is well known that rebellion in teens is rare in poor communities and families compared to middle classes. Rebellion is a luxury which strangely enough is usually purchased by the parents.

Even though it may sound like I'm contradicting myself, I actually think that luxury is a good thing. Choice is a good thing. Freedom is a good thing. I don't relish the idea of my daughter spending her life at the doomstead because she has no better options. I don't even like that I'm stuck living like the 40 year old virgin in order to stay out of home debt. What I would PREFER is for each generation to want to carry on the family legacy voluntarily, because they think it's the right thing to do.

[SeaGypsy]

There are traditional legacies which do not revolve around relinquished freedom. Bard craft (entertaining, comedy, acting, singing, dancing, etc.), scrimshaw (jewelery making, intricate carving), farm and handyperson skills; plus many modern variations on the themes of sustainable living like natural medicine, permaculture, recycling innovation etc. Many crafts and skills can be taught to children which will aid their mobility and freedom in a post collapse world.

[Ludi]

I don't have children but I'm practicing permaculture anyway. Trying to establish permanent food plants which might benefit my household in years to come and after us, whoever might happen to come along and find them. True, someone might cut them down in the future for some stupid reason, but that isn't my problem now. I'm doing this because it interests me and I think it is the right thing to do. Plants which are appropriate for the locale should continue to live and produce without human care, so intending a legacy of care into the future isn't strictly necessary. People will probably need to eat in the future and I hope to establish food which will be waiting for them when they need it.

[Ludi]

We could have an agrarian paradise as Jefferson had hoped. But we allowed the Masters to force us off the land into consumer ghettos where most are now helpless and hopeless. I do not see that changing ever without land redistrubtion and thus a violent revolution.

Probably not. Even if folks initially tried to do it non-violently, it would probably become violent at some point. But all we can do is our own little private parts to do the right thing (as we see it).

[mos6507]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

[davep]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

I am glad you asked, because you probably wouldn't understand. You are only a permacultural newbie

Original permaculture was about perennial crops. Then it changed to include zoning etc. Also, your response to mos's question doesn't actually answer his question.

[PrestonSturges]

I gathered some mulberry cuttings today and even found a couple seedlings I was able to uproot by hand. They are all in pots now and I gave them a dose of liquid root stimulator.

I noticed these trees last year in the scrubby area of an office park, where they were yielding buckets and buckets of berries.