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A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 09:53:21

AgentR11 wrote:
vision-master wrote:You have no future, the time will come when you will be unable to do your present work, you will have nothing. Reality will hit hard.


My grandfather did similar work till he was ~78. Then had a couple heart attacks, and died a couple years later relatively peacefully with no regrets.

I would account that a good, decent life and a reasonable end. Though, he didn't really like being dependent upon others for care that last year.

VM, we all enter, and leave with nothing. Its ok.


Agent, what you need to understand is MOST people die slowly, only a few are blessed like your grandfather.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 10:08:52

I think what you mean to say is that most middle class Americans die slowly. For humans in general. No they don't. We've crafted an artificial world here, and we die an artificial, extended, horrific death as a result.

You can choose to opt out. But you have to be a real hard *** about it.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 10:15:15

AgentR11 wrote:I think what you mean to say is that most middle class Americans die slowly. For humans in general. No they don't. We've crafted an artificial world here, and we die an artificial, extended, horrific death as a result.

You can choose to opt out. But you have to be a real hard *** about it.


Sorry, you are living in a fantasy world.

Arthritis: It's Debilitating and Detrimental Effects

Did you know that Arthritis is one of the most disabling diseases? It's true! Arthritis currently affects more than 40 million Americans and that figure is expected to rise to 60 million by the year 2020. It is imperative that you read this article and find out what this devastating disease is truly about.

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/102 ... fects.html
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 11:37:51

Before the Antibiotic revolution that almost eliminated bacterial pneumonia most bed ridden people died peacefully in their sleep from oxygen deprivation due to lung infections. We certainly didn't have coma patients living for as much as a decade, most of them were dead within six months even if they were given IV fluids and nutrition. Elder care was a small time business because most of them were on their feet working until a heart attack, stroke or serious bone injury like a broken hip put them in a bed ridden state of existence, then they quickly faded away from Pneumonia.

Fortunately or not that is not the current state of affairs and is kind of off topic for the subject of how long of a work week is optimal for human beings. Hunter Gatherers typically labor 15-20 hours per week to get all their basic needs met. Farmers are more than double that amount. When industrialization first came about many employers expected 66 hours a week, 5days of 12 hour shifts plus half a day on Saturday. That kind of thinking is what created the whole move to Unionize in the first place, you actually lived a healthier, more enjoyable life if you stayed on the farm working 48 hours a week.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby John_A » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 12:09:45

vision-master wrote:
AgentR11 wrote:I think what you mean to say is that most middle class Americans die slowly. For humans in general. No they don't. We've crafted an artificial world here, and we die an artificial, extended, horrific death as a result.

You can choose to opt out. But you have to be a real hard *** about it.


Sorry, you are living in a fantasy world.

Arthritis: It's Debilitating and Detrimental Effects


I don't consider my arthritis to be near as debilitating as my Type 2 diabetes. And the consequences of that have been horrifying, I have been faced with the hard reality of exercising more as I age! Coincidentally that seems to be helping my arthritis!

While there are many in the world who DO suffer from debilitating diseases (versus those who want to make everything into a debilitating disease), in the modern world it is primarily whining about how our bodies don't work like they did when we are 20, and the First World has the wealth to allow people to lay around in their older years and bitch about it, that being what they were taught to do, rather than getting off their asses and DOING something about it. So much easier to bitch, so much more difficult to do.

Just like peak oil stuff I might add. You can DO something about it, or sit around and whine.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 12:46:25

John_A wrote:
vision-master wrote:
AgentR11 wrote:I think what you mean to say is that most middle class Americans die slowly. For humans in general. No they don't. We've crafted an artificial world here, and we die an artificial, extended, horrific death as a result.

You can choose to opt out. But you have to be a real hard *** about it.


Sorry, you are living in a fantasy world.

Arthritis: It's Debilitating and Detrimental Effects


I don't consider my arthritis to be near as debilitating as my Type 2 diabetes. And the consequences of that have been horrifying, I have been faced with the hard reality of exercising more as I age! Coincidentally that seems to be helping my arthritis!

While there are many in the world who DO suffer from debilitating diseases (versus those who want to make everything into a debilitating disease), in the modern world it is primarily whining about how our bodies don't work like they did when we are 20, and the First World has the wealth to allow people to lay around in their older years and bitch about it, that being what they were taught to do, rather than getting off their asses and DOING something about it. So much easier to bitch, so much more difficult to do.

Just like peak oil stuff I might add. You can DO something about it, or sit around and whine.


Yeah, it's called infusions my friend. Not that long ago, say 15 to 20 years ago, people would get all deformed and end up in wheelchairs.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 12:48:43

John_A wrote:
vision-master wrote:
AgentR11 wrote:I think what you mean to say is that most middle class Americans die slowly. For humans in general. No they don't. We've crafted an artificial world here, and we die an artificial, extended, horrific death as a result.

You can choose to opt out. But you have to be a real hard *** about it.


Sorry, you are living in a fantasy world.

Arthritis: It's Debilitating and Detrimental Effects


I don't consider my arthritis to be near as debilitating as my Type 2 diabetes. And the consequences of that have been horrifying, I have been faced with the hard reality of exercising more as I age! Coincidentally that seems to be helping my arthritis!

While there are many in the world who DO suffer from debilitating diseases (versus those who want to make everything into a debilitating disease), in the modern world it is primarily whining about how our bodies don't work like they did when we are 20, and the First World has the wealth to allow people to lay around in their older years and bitch about it, that being what they were taught to do, rather than getting off their asses and DOING something about it. So much easier to bitch, so much more difficult to do.

Just like peak oil stuff I might add. You can DO something about it, or sit around and whine.


You sound like a .............. (never mind only SG can get away with it) :)
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 13:36:28

vision-master wrote:Sorry, you are living in a fantasy world.
Arthritis: It's Debilitating and Detrimental Effects


I have arthritis, medicated daily, I'm not quite 50. Knuckles are starting to be visually obvious, but the fingers still manage to beat on keyboards effectively, and I can still lay into a heavybag hard and bare-fisted. Knees and hips are kinda bad, but I have sufficient strength to overpower the stiffness. Its from simple, long term hard use, no conspiracy required. Its not fatal. It is quite painful. That said, I don't see how this will stop me from enjoying the next 20 or so years, play hard, and then check out cleanly; when in point of fact, as I age a failure of strength as a result of arthritis could easily result in that clean exit.

One thing, I get this odd sense when discussing these issues with you, that you fear or loath Death. Death is a patient companion, not an enemy. Attachment is the enemy.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 14:11:59

AgentR11 wrote:
vision-master wrote:Sorry, you are living in a fantasy world.
Arthritis: It's Debilitating and Detrimental Effects


I have arthritis, medicated daily, I'm not quite 50. Knuckles are starting to be visually obvious, but the fingers still manage to beat on keyboards effectively, and I can still lay into a heavybag hard and bare-fisted. Knees and hips are kinda bad, but I have sufficient strength to overpower the stiffness. Its from simple, long term hard use, no conspiracy required. Its not fatal. It is quite painful. That said, I don't see how this will stop me from enjoying the next 20 or so years, play hard, and then check out cleanly; when in point of fact, as I age a failure of strength as a result of arthritis could easily result in that clean exit.

One thing, I get this odd sense when discussing these issues with you, that you fear or loath Death. Death is a patient companion, not an enemy. Attachment is the enemy.


Everyone fears death. Well maybe not the Dalai Lama. :)

My question is, what are our real origins, nobody knows.

What happens AD, not one knows..

Why are we here, no one knows...
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 14:41:09

vision-master wrote:Everyone fears death. Well maybe not the Dalai Lama. :)

You're projecting. Dismissing the instinctive fear that is irrational is not a challenging exercise, but you do have to consciously choose to do so.

My question is, what are our real origins, nobody knows.
What happens AD, not one knows..
Why are we here, no one knows...


1. real, as in physical? Biochem molecules hook up, morph, grow, replicate, die; some replicate better than others. real as in why our form, as opposed to form X? If we were form X, it'd be the same question; so regardless of end state, the question is the same, which reduces to the final answer, which is that this form best propagated for this particular lineage of genetic material at this particular time in the history of the universe.

2. Particular faith's have doctrines regarding that question. Humans figured out a few centuries ago, that you can not test the hypothesis with the tools available in the physical world; so these doctrines are not falsifiable, and must be taken, or discarded solely on faith. Wrapping them in an obfuscation layer to produce a pretense of objective fact does nothing to prove the hypothesis and only yields information about the deceitfulness of the presenter.

3. Why does there need to be a why? Just because you can ask a question, does not imply that an answer satisfying the structure of the question can be given that is true.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 15:29:46

You're full of BS....... 8)
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 15:48:23

Such an amazingly insightful post.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 15:51:12

AgentR11 wrote:Such an amazingly insightful post.


^ Yes ^ by the smiling P*k.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 21:05:20

Any chance we could kinda sorta wander back in the general direction of the topic?

Here is a bit on topic by Bertrand Russel, 1933

http://grammar.about.com/od/classicessa ... leness.htm

But although my conscience has controlled my actions, my opinions have undergone a revolution. I think that there is far too much work done in the world, that immense harm is caused by the belief that work is virtuous, and that what needs to be preached in modern industrial countries is quite different from what always has been preached.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 24 Oct 2013, 21:36:10

I guess in many ways it would be nice to have a 35 hour a week job presumably 5 days at 7 hours each. I once worked for a company where our schedule was 44 hours a week, 5 days at 8 hours plus 4 hours on Saturday. They decided to save money on overtime by changing the schedule to 5 days at 7 hours during the week and 5 hours on Saturday. Needless to say the employees were less than thrilled with having to work every saturday just to get a full regular check, and when they more or less made it mandatory I found a better job.

It wasn't so much that they cut out our overtime, but the combination of cutting the overtime and forcing a six day a week schedule was too much to ask when they were competing with other companies for reliable workers.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 09:24:53

Subjectivist wrote:I guess in many ways it would be nice to have a 35 hour a week job presumably 5 days at 7 hours each. I once worked for a company where our schedule was 44 hours a week, 5 days at 8 hours plus 4 hours on Saturday. They decided to save money on overtime by changing the schedule to 5 days at 7 hours during the week and 5 hours on Saturday. Needless to say the employees were less than thrilled with having to work every saturday just to get a full regular check, and when they more or less made it mandatory I found a better job.

It wasn't so much that they cut out our overtime, but the combination of cutting the overtime and forcing a six day a week schedule was too much to ask when they were competing with other companies for reliable workers.


I would have become Messianic Judaism and then filed a lawsuit. :)

Jewish Shabbat (Shabbath, Shabbes, Shobos, etc.) is a weekly day of rest, observed from sundown on Friday until the appearance of three stars in the sky on Saturday night; it is also observed by a minority of Christians (as in Messianic Judaism).
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Threepwood » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 10:32:25

Shortening the Workweek to 35 hours would have immediate and drastic effect on the US jobs market.


Like in France?

People seem to forget that socialism is not just an academic argument, it's been tried all over the world, these are experiments that we already have results for.

Some people like the results of reduced private sector, lower consumption etc, but that's a separate argument
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Timo » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 12:37:18

The whole concept of a 35-hour work week, imo, can and should be implemented across the country, and it would have a tremendous upside for the individual worker. People would be happier with more time away from work, and more time doing the things we always dream of doing but can't becauswe we're at work. However, there's always a downside to everything good, and one such downside would be a reduction in pay because of fewer hours worked, and potentially the need to hire more workers to maintain the same productivities required to maintain an overall stable economy. Personally, financially, i could handle the commensurate reduction in pay for fewer hours worked. It would have to be an equitable, fair, and equal reduction in both time and pay, but i could do it, and i suspect i'd be happier with my life than i am now at 40+ hours per week. If businesses are always trying to produce more outputs with less inputs, this should, theoretically, help their bottom line, and would also produce a more satisfied and ergo, more productive workforce. Now, the caveat to all this is that i've never owned my own business, so this pov is entirely one-sided.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 18:27:17

Timo,

I both strongly agree and disagree.

I think you are very right that it would have a positive effect. It would take a big bit out of unemployment and share the wealth better.

Where I think you are wrong in assuming people would be happier if they had more time to do what they want. Your in good company, Russel made the same error in his piece I linked above.

A simple fact of the human condition is that we WANT TO WORK. We want to feel like we are doing something useful for the tribe. That we are "contributing". It is typically very hard for us to stay home and do nothing, we loose our self esteem and become depressed.

"............

In my fantasy we have a system where everyone gets a fixed amount of unemployment in their lifetime. Say 6 years. You can use it at anytime, but that is all there is. No more, no waivers.

Mandatory retirement age is, oh say 66. Any unused unemployment can then be used as early retirement. So, if you are like me and been continuously employed, you can retire at 60.

Kinda like the 35 hour work week. In fact, I think we should do both.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 18:31:23

A simple fact of the human condition is that we WANT TO WORK. We want to feel like we are doing something useful for the tribe. That we are "contributing". It is typically very hard for us to stay home and do nothing, we loose our self esteem and become depressed.


lol - I'm sure those Wall-mart employees love to contribute towards the Walton's riches.....
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