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Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.

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Peakoil.com :: View topic - Jevon's Paradox Explained
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Jevon's Paradox Explained
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Concerned
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude


Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 1458

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Jevon's Paradox Explained Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

MrBill wrote:
nth wrote:
MrBill,

I believe you are talking about something else.
No one is saying Cuba is energy independent, much less fossil fuel independent.


No, but my point is that far from being self-sufficient and an economic model for any other country, Cuba has been mainly propped-up and kept from dying by external sponsors like Russia, China and now VZL. However, this model does not travel. After PO in the USA there is no one who is going to bail-out Uncle Sam and keep the country running. Therefore, a Cuba is the wrong template to look at for a base case scenario.


After the collapse of the FSU Cuba had to make alot of painful adjustments to a life with far less oil.

I don't think anyone could argue that Cuba receives anywhere near the level of oil and sponsorship from China or Venezuala than what they obtained from the FSU.

The bottom line for optimists is that a nation's access to "cheap oil" was severly curtailed and they were able to effect some sort of transistion to a lower energy life style.
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"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
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sparky
Tar Sands
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Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Jevon's Paradox Explained Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

.
A Cuba future isn't the worst Very Happy
It would be quite possible to get the Kmers rouge style of society Sad

There seems to be a relationship between the price of available energy and the price of labor ,
possibly through the food production cost .
At face value society would rewind the historical movie ,

Two world wars , the end of the last one being fought with horse cavalry ,
then the plunge out of industrial societies

there is however some long lasting progress who would skew this scenario toward new forms , big hydro dams and the odd nuclear plant and of course one hundred year of rubbish heap and cities to be mined .


.
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jimk
Tar Sands
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Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 97
Location: New York State, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Jevon's Paradox Explained Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Here is a super simple example of how Jevon's paradox can work. I.e., we can end up using more petroleum when we get more efficient in our use of it.

Suppose we have two possible processes by which to make some widget.

In process A, we use $16 of oil and $2 of abrasive to make a widget. In process B, we use $4 of oil and $10 of abrasive to make a widget. So process A costs $18 per widget, and process B is $14. So we use process B.

Now, suppose we figure out how to improve our efficiency and can cut out oil usage in half.

Now, process A will use $8 of oil and $2 of abrasive per widget, i.e. a total of $10. Process B will use $2 of oil and $10 of abrasive, i.e. a total of $12.

When we improved our efficiency, process A became the less costly process, so we will switch to that. Now we are using $8 of oil per widget, instead of $4. We improved our efficiency by a factor of two, but our consumption went up by a factor of two!
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