I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
I don't know if the financial system could ever function without trust. It used to loan out 10 dollars for every dollar's worth of gold and silver in it's vault. That inspired trust. Now it's a system that has no reality to it. They don't even know how much of their assets are in the form of mortgages. There is no way of valueing their assets, so there is no trust.
The government is run by a bunch of pirates. They ran out of places to loot, so now they are shaking down the taxpayer.
I still trust the state and local government, but they do some things that aren't that smart sometimes as well. They don't seem to be corrupt like the central government, however.
The health care system is really flawed. I don't think it will function for too much longer. I don't trust doctors any more. They told me to get arthroscopic surgery on my knee for arthritic changes and now it's way worse. It turns out that therapy would have been way better, but I have health insurance, so they operated. Now my knee hurts all the time, instead of some of the time.
That's my rant on trust. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
seldom_seen wrote:
aflurry wrote:
When Obama enters the white house and discovers the degree to which it has been plundered under the watch of the GOP, we can only hope that people begin to regain some understanding of what public means in the context of a democracy.
Why does the word "Obama" cause so many people to switch off their brains?
He's "one of them." He's not one of you or me. The largest contributer to his campaign is Goldman Sachs fer chri'sakes. He's taken large contributions from the corrupt Fannie/Freddie monstrosity. During the run up to the looting of the treasury (bailout vote)...did you see how Bush and Paulson summoned him back to the Whitehouse and he came running like a good little house boy? Then of course, he stood shoulder to shoulder with McCain and voted "yes, I support the greatest wealth transfer of public money to private hands in the history of our republic."
The guy is a complete and total fraud. It gives me the willies that so many people shutdown their critical thinking faculties when Obama enters the picture.
what you think may see as blind adoration for obama, i see as deserved desperation to flush away the republican criminal conspiracy that has destroyed our country. if Obama can get some energy behind him for that, then i'm all for him.
you are overreacting to my post. because i support him over this living monstrosity that is mccain/palin? christ, are you going to start yelling "torrrist" and "kill him" too? or babbling on about some imaginary weatherman connection? talk about losing your mental faculties... look, you take baby steps away from the criminal conspiracy called the GOP. I would like to see campaign finance reform. but why on earth single out obama's funding over any other person's in washington?
you seem to be the one idealizing Obama, actually. complaining that he isn't a saint somehow floating above the political world he works in.
How do you get from identifying his contributors to "total fraud?" he's campaigning as a damn moderate anyway.
i'm not talking conspiracy politics like you are anyway. I am talking about the self proclaimed republican dereg at all cost privatize at all costs. it's horse crap and it has failed. what you are spouting is some inarticulate version of the manchurian candidate theory.
and the transfer from public to private started years ago... it ain't the frigging bailout... that's just flailing around trying to clean up the mess that whole process created. it's crap but so is everything else at this point.
i'm not even in the one of them, one of you and me conversation... i mean, who the hell are you? are you a ron paul guy? for the guy who pushed for reagan's tax cut for the wealthy. just about every idea ron paul has i think the opposite... at least so far... his retarded "inflation tax" idea? an issue for the wealthy if it exists for anyone at all, not those living paycheck to paycheck.... eliminating progressive taxation for regressive taxation, but couching it as some kind of criminal conspiracy rather than simply a money grab by the wealthy? the oft repeated "fiat money" concept which i have yet to hear anyone articulate outside of some generic talking points for the libertarians pamphlet. i have seen absolutely no evidence of critical thinking in that sorry ass lot.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6535 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
seldom_seen wrote:
aflurry wrote:
When Obama enters the white house and discovers the degree to which it has been plundered under the watch of the GOP, we can only hope that people begin to regain some understanding of what public means in the context of a democracy.
Why does the word "Obama" cause so many people to switch off their brains?
He's "one of them." He's not one of you or me. The largest contributer to his campaign is Goldman Sachs fer chri'sakes. He's taken large contributions from the corrupt Fannie/Freddie monstrosity. During the run up to the looting of the treasury (bailout vote)...did you see how Bush and Paulson summoned him back to the Whitehouse and he came running like a good little house boy? Then of course, he stood shoulder to shoulder with McCain and voted "yes, I support the greatest wealth transfer of public money to private hands in the history of our republic."
The guy is a complete and total fraud. It gives me the willies that so many people shutdown their critical thinking faculties when Obama enters the picture.
I agree with every word. In many ways, Obama has broken MY trust.
Unfortunately, I believe McCain/Palin to be even worse. By a substantial degree. Both of them are clearly crazy. We can't afford another crazy president. I fear nuclear war would be distinctly possible under either of them.
This election is about more than mere fraud. It's about survival of you and me. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
I agree with Heineken's comments directly above, but let's talk about financial fraud too.
How could Lehman lose more than $400 billion for its stock/debt investors, while only a few weeks before the head of the comapny was stating all is well?
Something is wrong with this picture, and it's no surprise that US citizens intuitively have lose their trust in the financial system.
This is much bigger than Enron - just the AIG fiasco is bigger than Enron, and that was supposed to be a reliable insurance company.
Yes we have lost a lot of trust, that's why the government is going to decide to invest directly in the market where investors fear to thread. _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6959 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
Heineken wrote:
So where does this lead?
I think you hit it on the head, we will again trust one another and I'm hopeful it is coming.
Not the talking heads, not the disembodied voice on the radio, not the copywriter for the political ads or politician's speeches or some News Magazine host.
When we once again look across the property line at our neighbor and say Hi, I'm thinking we may start... _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
aflurry wrote:
what you think may see as blind adoration for obama, i see as deserved desperation to flush away the republican criminal conspiracy that has destroyed our country.
My point aflurry is that your candidate, who will be president (that's already been decided)...is basically a George Bush with a D next to his name and a different skin tone. You can't see that though because you bought the Democrat vs. Republican propaganda that is drilled in to your head 24/7 by radio/teevee/internet/magazines/newspapers and all other forms of mass communication. Repetitively, constantly, relentlessly...over and over ad nauseum.
Books and talking heads and announcers all forcing you, requiring you to pick one of the two parties. Choose your side, your team. Nebraska or Oklahoma? Celtics or the Lakers? The forces are strong, the power of groupthink irresistible. If you give in, and most do, and say I'm a D or I'm an R. You've lost. You're owned by the system. As Thoreau said "Wherever a man goes, men will pursue him and paw him with their dirty institutions, and, if they can, constrain him to belong to their desperate oddfellow society."
Now you may ask, how can Obama be a George Bush? Because both men, now and in the future answer to the same people. You can not become president in this country unless you agree to play by a certain set of rules and answer to a certain set of people. The office of president in this country has more or less been obsoleted. That's why we get such weak candidates. It is now just a vacancy that needs to be filled to keep up appearances. All you have to do is watch the McCain/Obama debates (if you can stay awake) to see how ridiculous and fake presidential politics have become. Sh*t, Biden said we would gladly be John McCain's running mate...now he's Obama's running mate. What's the difference? There is none...you're being sold a bill of goods and you're signing for it.
If you're willing to be objective and willing to think critically...you will know and you will understand that it was not the Republicans that got us in to this mess, and it was not the Democrats. It was both, taking turns, tag teaming you while you were bent over holding your ankles.
So vote Obama for your warm fuzzy feeling, but don't let go of your ankles.
This blind, unwavering, unquestioning support of Obama is a sort of collective Stockholm syndrome, where the hostage shows loyalty to the hostage taker regardless of the dangers.
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
Don't trust people, church, state, schools, the media etc.
The rip-off artists (lenders, mortgage brokers, investors etc) broke the housing and stock markets. Don't think much of the politicians either.Am an independent not a D or an R. We need a multi-party system with proportional voting. The winner take all-crap should go. The fiduciary responsibility demanding that corportations maximize returns to their stock holders should go as well. Executives and administrators should not make more than $100,000 or about 3 times the wages of their average workers.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4678 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
The US has a long history of being a low corruption, highly trusting society.
There is a direct correlation between having low levels of perceived corruption and high levels of national income.
If the US becomes more corrupt, our economy will suffer. This will reduce trust, increase bribery and theft, increase corruption...triggering a positive feedback loop.
In short, modern society requires trust. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Joined: Apr 06, 2005 Posts: 1018 Location: 38 km west of Warsaw, Poland
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
Pops wrote:
Heineken wrote:
So where does this lead?
I think you hit it on the head, we will again trust one another and I'm hopeful it is coming.
Not the talking heads, not the disembodied voice on the radio, not the copywriter for the political ads or politician's speeches or some News Magazine host.
When we once again look across the property line at our neighbor and say Hi, I'm thinking we may start...
Believe it or not Pops I still see that same level of trust in the small towns and villages here in Poland. It was probably the same in the states many years ago. Lots of folks buy groceries and other items at the local store and only sign the receipt. Recently, my wife needed to get from our farm to our other property but had no money (local ATM was OutOfOrder). The owner told her to fill it up.
The way it should be...
We 'buy' building materials all the time from our local supplier with the understanding that we wil pay them back soon. Sometimes we show up with cash and the computer is cranky so we agree to come back later in the week. _________________ Remember, with globalisation "everyone is a winner" in the "race to the bottom". - rogerhb
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. A.C. Clarke
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
TreebeardsUncle wrote:
Don't trust people, church, state, schools, the media etc.
The rip-off artists (lenders, mortgage brokers, investors etc) broke the housing and stock markets. Don't think much of the politicians either.Am an independent not a D or an R. We need a multi-party system with proportional voting. The winner take all-crap should go. The fiduciary responsibility demanding that corportations maximize returns to their stock holders should go as well. Executives and administrators should not make more than $100,000 or about 3 times the wages of their average workers.
g
I agree. Making profit maximization a legal requirement is extremely greedy and myopic. I think in the long run it reduces profitability because only pursuing a high rate of return for one quarter means sacrificing reinvestment in the business through research, maintenance etc. Its also a reason to cut corners, inviting loss from reckless investment or lawsuits. Fiduciary responsibility also ignores obligations to workers, society and the environment. If a company can not at least meet basic requirements in these areas, it does not deserve to exist.
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Can America Function without Trust?
Fishman wrote:
More likely "shifts" in trust are taking place. Less trust in the state will mean more trust in other institutions.
Translated:
Quote:
Less trust in some authority figures will result in more trust for other authority figures, namely ones with funny collars, or hats, and usually ones that, to quote Carlin, aren't real good with money.
Yeah - got it, thanks for that.
_________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
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