How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Nov 18, 2004 Posts: 1025 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&q
The article relates a reason why I wouldn't hold my breath thinking that government is going to solve one's energy problems, but probably make them worse. It is also a good example of why I am a proponent of distributed power generation as opposed to centralized power sources.
No environmental study or permit was needed to install a solar water heater and some PV on my house. _________________ About my avatar: A glassy sphere and a mineral particle magnified 1500 times using a scanning electron microscope.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&a
Cabrone wrote:
People of the US and the world, the reality is that this administration has done more harm to global climate\energy\economic and political stability than any other regime in history (not even the grotesque Nazis managed this amount of damage). I look forward to the day that the US public wakes up, grows a pair of cojones and puts the whole damn weasel bunch of them on trial.
So, when Hitler tried to bombed your little island and your town of London to the ground, that was ok since his actions are better than our (us US citizens) current president? You may want to study up on history again before making that statement. Or talk to a retired WWII veteran neighbor of yours.
Remember, UK stands for United Kingdom, an empire that was spread around the world so it could pull resources from around the world to fuel the mother island. If I am not mistaken, the North Sea of yours is running out of oil as well. Maybe Tony Blair realized this as well and just like us, had to keep the pipeline going somewhere else. I have been to the UK numerous times, back and forth alot for business. Believe me, you folks are "addicted to oil" just like us, maybe a little less. Take a look at the M25 or M1 traffic, and there are hundreds of other examples. And if the traffic isn't stopped, then everyone zooming at 100mph hoping not to get a ticket from the cameras.
It is funny that when I get to Heathrow, I would take the Tube and rail up to Northampton. Everyone I work with there questioned why I would ride the "lousy" rail system. Hey, compared to Amtrak, you guys have a system. I scratch my head on those of your country who criticize your rail system.
Yes, Bush is no angel, but to compare him to Hitler and his action, you got to stop watch CNN and get to some facts. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&a
PeakOiler wrote:
No environmental study or permit was needed to install a solar water heater and some PV on my house.
OOOOOUUUUHHH-wey, I am goina tell mama on yall and she goina take you to there erh wood shed and whooooop you little assssss...yes ser reee. youz got to have ther permit from ther govnerment to do any thang...do yaw understand?!?!!!..my oh my _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Gee, their usage has gone up by over 50% in the last 27 years.
Must be Bush's fault.
I know the answer. Since the world is "Global Warming", to protect the sub-zero temperature of the Antarctica, air conditioning chillers have been install where that Ozone Hole is down there. The power consumption is outrageous. Not to worry, I will buy Carbon Credits to offset the power consumption and we will feel good all over.
Those penguins were ready to march off is we did not do anything, some already did. I think BBC did a documentary just a few months ago on the Arctic melt down and BBC in that documentary showed the penguins are up there. Boy, those penguins will be glad to come back down to the new, cooler Antarctica. The ice is almost gone up there and they can't swim forever. The polar bears up there are not your friendliest neighbors to have. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&q
The discussion has seemed to get off-track. The question or assertion is that the Bush Admin has intentionally killed off solar energy development in the USA using environmental concerns as convienent political cover. Some are skeptical that the Bush Admin is putting the lives of a few dozen scorpions in some remote part of the desert southwest ahead of the need to develop clean carbon-free solar energy - especially given the fact that the Bush Admin is pushing for the immediate drilling (for oil) in known environmentally sensitive areas. Namely the nations coastlines. _________________ "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." Homer Simpson
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5099 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&a
joe1347 wrote:
the Bush Admin has intentionally killed off solar energy development in the USA using environmental concerns as convienent political cover.
Do you really imagine the evil Bush administration travelled through time and tricked Congress decades ago into writing laws requiring EIS statements? Its silly to fantasize that solar is the victim of some evil conspiracy by the Bush administration.
The EIS laws predate Bush by decades.
The EIS process was designed by environmentalists and written into law by Congress decades ago to slow and stop development of federal lands. All federal land leases and sales, and all construction of roads etc. on federal lands require EIS statements, not just those involving solar energy.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&q
ProudFossil wrote:
To Cabrone:
Before you start your liberal rantings about oil get some facts:
It's hilarious how some people want to stick up for this administation.
The 'facts' are that they have left you with:
1. A barrel of oil costing around $140 (probably significantly more before they have departed).
2. $2-3 trillion of war debt, thousands of dead US servicemen\women and an unwinnable war.
3. A complete dependence on mid east oil. Saudi Arabia says 'jump' and the US says 'how high'.
4. A rate of oil consumption that is crippling your country.
Put patriotism and democrat\republican tribalism to one side - can you honestly say you are happy with that legacy?
BTW my original post was not a pop at the American people. They are no different to the people in any other country.
I actually feel sorry for the majority of them, they have been conned all ends up by Bushco.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5099 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&a
Cabrone wrote:
this administation..... have left you with:
1. A barrel of oil costing around $140 (probably significantly more before they have departed).
Bush has been a bad president, but he isn't the cause of everything wrong in the world.
This topic seems to be attracting those suffering from "Bush derangement syndome" or BDS. This mental condition manifests itself as an illogical tendency to blame everything on Bush.
Blaming EIS laws on Bush, even though the laws were passed by Congress at the behest of environmentalists decades before Bush took office is an example of BDS.
The rising price of oil is caused by rising demand in China and India and a global plateau in oil production (i.e. peak oil). Neither of those factors is caused by Bush. IMHO, blaming the rising price of oil on Bush is another example of BDS.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&a
joe1347 wrote:
The discussion has seemed to get off-track. The question or assertion is that the Bush Admin has intentionally killed off solar energy development in the USA using environmental concerns as convienent political cover. Some are skeptical that the Bush Admin is putting the lives of a few dozen scorpions in some remote part of the desert southwest ahead of the need to develop clean carbon-free solar energy - especially given the fact that the Bush Admin is pushing for the immediate drilling (for oil) in known environmentally sensitive areas. Namely the nations coastlines.
Yo, joe. you start a good post. Sorry we side tracked, but when someone from the EU equates our Prez to Hitler, well some correct is needed. GWB isn't the best Prez but he is our Prez. I remember being over there during the Clinton Admin, they trashed Billy as well. Again, I am not a fan for him, but at the time he was our Prez. They still haven't admitted it was millions of our JI's that went over there to die for them. And we still get trashed.
OK, a little government civics is in order. Congress at one end of Penn. Ave. is suppose to make bill which are laws. The President down at 1600 Penn. Ave administrates those bills or laws into action. In between these two places is this Supreme Court house, they check the bill (law) against the constitution to make sure it passes the legality test. There lies the problem, lots of bills don't past the test very well, but they get through. EIS could fall into this category if it was challenged. But it has been out there for 30+ years, hard to fix this one.
So sitting on the cabinet of the President are Department heads, as we so name Secretaries. Most know who the Sec of State is, she that Ms. Rice lady. Sitting on the same cabinet is the Sec of Energy and Sec of Interiors. Again, their job is to administrate what bills come down from the congress, and each bill is identified to which department handles the bill (law).
So the DOE has been working on alternative energies for years. Go to their website and you can see their activities. But they can only do what congress allows the to do through the bill/law command. And, the funding for this department is determined by the congress, the bill/law makers, they set the budget for tax and spending. The Prez can veto the request, but congress can over ride it with a certain majority percentage of representatives. SO if the federal govt wants to spend and push for solar energy, well it is the congress that has to do it.
As for the DOI, they have been told to take federal land, managed by the BLM, and convert some of it solar power station. Congress gave the green light on this, through a bill. However, BLM says, wait a minute, we got this EIS that has be done first since it is a law to do it. Don't go by the rules, bam, the environmental lawyers are marching the BLM/DOI to court. It sucks, but this is the way it is.
As you so posted the NYT article today, thank you for linking it, the DOI has done their part and is ready to issue permits (about 130 in all), they want to do it, but legally they can't until the paperwork is complete, remember the EIS is a law. So the DOI, which is the Bush Admin, is ready and wanting to do it.
As for offshore drilling, the Bush admin is requesting it be done. Again note the word, REQUESTING. The solar power on federal land is already being worked on. But the Prez cannot do anything about offshore drilling until congress, through the bill/law system, gives him the green light.
HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF PROPOSALS: The Prez can propose that all American citizens are entitled to a free hot tub to relieve our stress. However, he can not go out and administrate the request (spend the money) since the congress must first create and ok a bill/law and appropriate the funding to spend. This proposes would fly through the Supreme Court with living colors under the "pursue of happiness" clause of our Declaration of Independence which is what our Constitution is derived from. This bill would probably make it through before the offshore drilling bill.
Hate to pound the point, by this dweeb from NYT needs to get the facts straight on who's doing what. It is funny that grandma Polosi said that when she takes over congress, gas prices will go down through her work with congress. OOPS, it went up. Remember, the congress makes the bills/laws. Did they do anything to stop the increase(s)? Did they push for the US to be less depended on foreign oil? The list can go on and on. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Bush Kills off Solar Energy Citing "Environmental&a
Cabrone wrote:
ProudFossil wrote:
To Cabrone:
Before you start your liberal rantings about oil get some facts:
It's hilarious how some people want to stick up for this administation.
The 'facts' are that they have left you with:
1. A barrel of oil costing around $140 (probably significantly more before they have departed).
2. $2-3 trillion of war debt, thousands of dead US servicemen\women and an unwinnable war.
3. A complete dependence on mid east oil. Saudi Arabia says 'jump' and the US says 'how high'.
4. A rate of oil consumption that is crippling your country.
Put patriotism and democrat\republican tribalism to one side - can you honestly say you are happy with that legacy?
BTW my original post was not a pop at the American people. They are no different to the people in any other country.
I actually feel sorry for the majority of them, they have been conned all ends up by Bushco.
Best of luck, you are going to need it.
Cabrone, Hello from the rebellious colonies.
If you been reading this post, you would discover that there is an internal issue here in the US that we are debating AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSH. It has to do with the EIS and it demands.
To answer your 4 points:
1) Bush didn't raise the prices, the world economic demands did. Remember I do business in your country. You folks have outsourced the work out of your country and gave it to China and India. They are now sucking from the same oil spigot as all of world. And the spigot can only pull so much, so the oil spigot owners say: pay up.
2) Yes the war was crazy but didn't your friend Hitler invade USSR for oil. He wanted the oil field to fuel his empire. And as your oil field dry up, where is your oil going to come from? As Tony Blair on this one. Study history and you will discover what is going on. Remember, your little empire did the same thing.
3) If I not mistaken, didn't your PM Brown go down to Saudi Arabia to beg for oil like the rest of the surfs of the world last weekend? Bush knew it would be a waste of time so he just sent out Sec of Energy to be the US rep on the discussion panel. We got work to do over here.
4) Yes, our rate of consumption is wrong. We will need to adjust and of course we got soft. But you Brits, like I said, you guys are just as "addicted to oil" as us. Just look at the parking lot at Tesco.
Bush don't care about a legacy so end of discussion there. He fights with our congress to get things done, and they don't do anything except name Post Offices. We have a system here that needs work so off to our rebel attitude we (us in the US) go to fix it up. Don't feel sorry for us, we can do just fine. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
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