How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2615 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Ludi wrote:
Being suspicious of "monolithic conclusions" is a good thing. The conclusions "hunter-gatherers in general show less evidence of famine than agriculturists" may or may not be a monolithic conclusion. "Agriculturists are more successful than hunter-gatherer" seems, to me, to be a monolithic conclusion. But I think maybe it is more of a semantic or even value-based conclusion ("success" being rather subjective).
I guess, I'm just not sure why physical anthropologists would be more likely to be biased about their subject, than, say, historians.
Anyway, I'm tired of these arguments. Believe what you want.
Historians are actually the worst perpetrators, worse than anthropologists, worse than economists, worse than theologians... ok may just as bad as theologians.
(for those who don't know the joke I have two degrees. One in history and the other... theology)
Yes there is a subjective value of success but there also putting people's arguments to the task and asking the simple question, "Do they really know enough to know what they are talking about?" When it comes to that one specific conclusion of anthropologists, my answer is "no, they don't." _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
There may be a lot of game in the mountains, or relatively inaccessible areas, but the settled areas will quickly empty of any game bigger than a squirrel.
The problem is that in an area where everyone's hungry the animals have a tendency to end up as dinner.
I don't think that "the starving masses" will eat too many of them, because they won't make it too far out of the cities.
It will be the rural people themselves who will eat most of the wildlife. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11856 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
wisconsin_cur wrote:
When it comes to that one specific conclusion of anthropologists, my answer is "no, they don't."
Because you have studied the subject so much yourself? That is, you are claiming to know more about the subject than the people who study it professionally?
Ugh! I'm still arguing! Nevermind! _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2615 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Ludi wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
When it comes to that one specific conclusion of anthropologists, my answer is "no, they don't."
Because you have studied the subject so much yourself? That is, you are claiming to know more about the subject than the people who study professionally?
I am only claiming that it does not pass the BS meter. Just because they study it does not mean they know what they are talking about. Scientist who know a lot more about the brain than I said that anti-depressants worked, now we learn they work at the same rate as placeboes, I suspected as much because working in Behavioral Health I'm a dealer of sorts and while they do help some I see plenty that they do not help. Most people need to go do some physical work but we don't get any studies of that, they experts do not advocate it because it does not fit their paradigm.
Same is true of those who know more about geology than I do and claim we will have plenty of oil for another 30 years. They have a bias and it does not pass the BS meter.
We could go on and on about the "experts" being wrong. In the hard sciences this is frequently exhibited as the evidence changes and the theories must with it. The softer sciences (of which anthropology is one) do not have that as much because one can afford to be dogmatic because there will not be one bit of undeniable evidence that changes everything. There are people who have built a career on one theory and they will stick to it until they themselves are bones and they are the most studied experts.
Anyone who claims to tell me that they can tell as much about the diet and lifetime expectations of hunter-gatherers based upon evidence from bones and a few remaining societies and then use that contrast against the (relatively) well documented history of famine in settled communities is not going to pass the BS meter. We got more people in settled societies... we are more likely to press the carrying capacity envelop, I get it... how is that possible, however, if we are a bunch of malnourished, famine prone consumers?
How is it that hunter.gatherers never push the envelope? If it is not famine and disease etc that keep them below the carrying capacity of their region than what does keep them below it? Is that thing (whatever it is) incompatible with a settled lifestyle? If it is compatible than it is not a problem with settled-ness per sea but some other part of culture. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Ludi wrote:
Because you have studied the subject so much yourself? That is, you are claiming to know more about the subject than the people who study it professionally?
There are more people who study the subject than those who write essays on anthropik. _________________ Peak oil is sort of like a mental Everlasting Gobstopper, except it tastes like ass and you can't get it out of your mouth.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Revi wrote:
There may be a lot of game in the mountains, or relatively inaccessible areas, but the settled areas will quickly empty of any game bigger than a squirrel.
The problem is that in an area where everyone's hungry the animals have a tendency to end up as dinner.
I don't think that "the starving masses" will eat too many of them, because they won't make it too far out of the cities.
It will be the rural people themselves who will eat most of the wildlife.
Yes, with no hunting regs, the game will dry up quick. We got tons of deer here. But we have far more people than deer...and most of em are gun nuts.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
wisconsin_cur wrote:
.....
flexibility is my plan. if i have to walk away from everything, then so be it; if i have to hunker down, then fine. i however don't intend to be completely tied to any single strategy.
Flexibility and adaptation are two characteristics of the successful survivor.
Some of us do a great job surviving catastrophes and some of us cannot even survive a stretch of hot weather and die.
It takes knowledge, dedication and action to be successful at it.
Sometimes we can get stuck in a a place of constantly looking and never finding. In short, we can get stuck in a state of "analysis paralysis" with our work as well as life in general.
We tell ourselves we need to assemble all the facts before we can start and as perfectionists we never seem to have *all* the facts that allow us to perfectly act.
Remember, knowledge without application is useless.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Maybe its all a part of learned behavior. The farmers in the Great Depression/dust bowel left there land to find land they could farm. They were farmers.
Where as the factory workers stood in food lines in the cities, probably because they were factory workers, and there wasn't any factory work anyplace.
The masses will only roam if they are energetic. If they aren't then they will stand in the bread lines.
I don't think the MZB's will be as bad as everyone thinks, or wishes. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 282 Location: Tennessee
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
I think there will be regional variations of response as we can see how communities respond to natural disasters hitting them now. Some places the people stand around and scream "where's FEMA" "where's the Federal Government" "where's this or that" yada, yada, yada. Other places we saw this week have men, women, children, prisoners, amish folks, etc all pitching together to save and preserve their community by filling sand bags, etc. I'm sure high population areas, people will wander out for stability and food, but if you don't have the resources to pay for gas to escape far away the people will only migrate so far. This is just my own thoughts, not based on any research, that's why I don't get in a debate (smiley face-I still cant get my computer to do this, I'm SURE its operator error - lol). Hopefully I'll be correct because we now live in a southern, rural town that is primarily agriculture. Down side right now is that we have to travel about 45 minutes to 1 hour to go to "the mall"-but that's not the end of the world. I feel like a kid in a candy shop between the produce from my garden and the large quantities of fruits and vegetables I can obtain from all the pick your own farms and local farmers!
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
allenwrench wrote:
AgentR wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
I think what's more likely is a "zombie horde lite" which is just people strategically moving from collapsing cities to rural regions. In so doing they will destroy these rural areas with thier sheer numbers. They will move while they still have the means to do so.
Not hardly. They will be walking fertilizer once they get out of eyeshot of someone who would be forced to react to zombie-control with an official response. Which, in rural America, is pretty much everywhere.
If you intend to be one of the zombies hunting for "helpless" rural folks... understand this, a good portion of them (us/me?) are flat out nuts, have guns, and routinely shoot at or nearly at people already for no particularly good reason. Out of town zombies, trespassing?
Fertilizer.
This brings up a good point for the not so crazed rural dweller to consider.
Not counting masses, but just talking about individuals and familles. How will you dissuade them besides killing them if they wonder onto your property looking for help or handouts?
Warning signs? Non lethal booby traps? Fence and drawbridge?
In the mountains? Rail gun rounds that shatter rockfaces along the major highways leading into this region. You could render roads impassible -- barring heavy equipment -- and have sentinels watch the barriers from a considerable distance for anyone with sufficient wherewithal to force their way past.
I suspect this would be the last-ditch strategy of local authorities if an unmanageable horde were rushing up the highway towards us. And yes, building a rail gun is fairly simple if you have the electricity to power it. And we most likely would.
Joined: Jul 29, 2005 Posts: 251 Location: Show-Me State
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Good day from Pheba, from the farm:
This bit of doomer information is for the folks who plan on killing deer or other mammals to feed their families.
One of the reasons we have so many deer is that the herds are maintained.
The natural predators of deer (wolves) have been decimated.
We need to maintain herds to keep them from breeding out of control.
Without that maintenance herds would peak, then reduce their own numbers from overshoot and the decline that follows overshoot.
When people start hunting deer in greater and greater numbers, the ability of the deer herds to breed will be greatly impacted.
Deer numbers will decline.
There will come a time when the numbers drop below the ability of the herd to reproduce.
This will happen within the space of a few years.
While there may be enough deer to feed a local population for a few years, that number will quickly decline, and soon there will be no deer.
The British learned this the hard way. They had laws called the Forest Laws. Only the aristocracy could hunt.
The laws could be savage. Most peasants found hunting were sent to debtors prison.
One time an English king revoked the Forest Laws in a bid for popularity. Memory fails me on which king it was.
The move was a disaster. In a short space of time the livestock was decimated. There was an actual risk of losing the animals forever.
The king had to reinstate the Forest Laws. This was a disaster for the King's popularity. Reinstating an unpopular law was the worst thing a King could do, but it was necessary.
If you wrap your head around the differences in population numbers, and the inability of the powers that be to enforce any modern equivalent to "forest Laws", then it is easy to see that it is going to be a mad scramble.
I would not be surprised to witness the extinction of the White-tailed deer in a very short time.
A more realistic view would be to acquire a taste for field mice.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11856 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
Deer here in my part of Texas are currently a plague upon the land due to low population of predators (though cougar seem to be returning), so I'm not personally going to worry about them going extinct during my lifetime. If they become too few to hunt, we'll eat squirrels or grasshoppers.
We will often see a herd of up to a dozen whitetail or exotic Axis deer pass through our land. There are very few young trees or shrubs due to the browsing pressure from these animals.
And this is in an area where hunting is quite popular, and hunting of Axis is legal year-round. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
While visiting friends high up in the hills of WV, an old timer told me that during the Great Depression, the deer population up there in the woods went way, way, way down.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
The same thing happened here. And it took a LONG time for the deer population to recover. We have plenty now, thankfully. But that is due to current management practices. I can remember my dad saying it was a good ten years after we moved here before he saw the first deer track (that would have been in the early 80s). Since then, the numbers have grown, but before that time there was no hunting to be had because the population was so decimated. There's a lot more people living out here now, too, so I expect if hunting regulations are disregarded they'll vanish more quickly this time around.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?
CarlinsDarlin wrote:
The same thing happened here. And it took a LONG time for the deer population to recover. We have plenty now, thankfully. But that is due to current management practices. I can remember my dad saying it was a good ten years after we moved here before he saw the first deer track (that would have been in the early 80s). Since then, the numbers have grown, but before that time there was no hunting to be had because the population was so decimated. There's a lot more people living out here now, too, so I expect if hunting regulations are disregarded they'll vanish more quickly this time around.
Why do people keep using "decimate" incorrectly. It means taking every tenth man and killing him.
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