Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
A Vegan-directed military will basically have the task of cutting off the third world's hand at the wrist when it grabs for the drumstick.
As long as it's the third world that suffers, it works for me.
Still, I think that the elites - those with means - will continue to enjoy meat. Perhaps it will become a status symbol, with the wealthy eating real food, and the poor eating some sort of manufactured food.
There was a film to that effect, but I forget the title.
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
JPL wrote:
BlisteredWhippet
I have a lot of respect for your prior experience & posts but on this one you have totally, utterly, lost the plot.
Sorry.
JP
I understand your comment to be incredulous. Obviously there is a gulf between what we know about ourselves and what we know about the future. All I'm doing is drawing the connections between now and the goal (a reversal of bioshpere destruction), without crossing any of the obvious dead ends:
Pacifism
mass meat-eating
religion
profligate consumerism
toothless environmentalism
corporatism
"democracy"
ethical absolutism
hippyism
mysticalism
Positivism
internationalism
multilateralism, etc.
I fully admit that "the plot" will certainly include some or even most of the above, and I also assume that we will utterly fail, in part or directly because of them.
My scenario is built on what is possible and what is achievable, and formed around what it would take to get there. I also submit that, however insane or conventionally unlikely such events seem now, I suspect circumstances will expand the concept of what is "rational".
At this time in history, in our culture, what is "rational" is tightly constricted by a culture kept under pressure. I predict, along with the great "deflation" of the next several years, an explansion of what is considered rational, as people are forced to confront realities.
What do first world technological capitalists with huge standing armies do when the chips are down and destruction of the world is in the offing?
The culture is going to get a shot in the arm, just as the boomer old guard is hanging up its hat and retiring. The youngsters are going to be willing to give up the old lifestyles and embrace crusades and conflicts. They are not going to accept attrition, or a role of powerlessness in the face of planetary destruction. They are going to decide to give up meat practically overnight as soon as the logic of that conclusion sets in. And they are going to be enthusiastic and competent button-pushing, satellite-targetting, cyber-war operatives.
Generation Xers are going to help demolish the apparatus if the old guard refuses to give up the keys to the Cadillac. Then, it will have body armor rivetted to it and leave the old people in a cloud of dust as they dispense with the muddling moralism of the past as they race to their date with destiny.
A war with a clear goal and high moral purpose is something only the oldest of old-timers are going to recognize.
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
You're smart, Whippet, but you're the only person on the forum I consider potentially dangerous. I think it's the utter seething, foaming at the mouth hatred of anything that smacks of mysticism, that prompts me to reveal this. Your prescriptions for the future, steeped in moral relativism, atheism, and stripped of the mystical, would create a kind of Hell on earth. Get rid of ethical absolutism? Idi Amin did a good job of that, didn't he?
Your social commentary is superb, though.--Second to none.
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1195 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
I think a much more likely scenario....
The civilized world gets desperate and tells the US and China to stop burning so much coal (or else?), and we, independently acting though we might be, level the muzzle of our respective forces, and firmly tell them.
No. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
They are going to decide to give up meat practically overnight as soon as the logic of that conclusion sets in.
Not likely. Meat will continue to be enjoyed, both on its merits and as conspicuous consumption.
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
Generation Xers are going to help demolish the apparatus if the old guard refuses to give up the keys to the Cadillac. Then, it will have body armor rivetted to it and leave the old people in a cloud of dust as they dispense with the muddling moralism of the past as they race to their date with destiny.
Moralism died long ago.
Keep in mind - Old age and treachery always defeats youth and talent.
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
JPL wrote:
BlisteredWhippet
I have a lot of respect for your prior experience & posts but on this one you have totally, utterly, lost the plot.
Sorry.
JP
I understand your comment to be incredulous. Obviously there is a gulf between what we know about ourselves and what we know about the future. All I'm doing is drawing the connections between now and the goal (a reversal of bioshpere destruction), without crossing any of the obvious dead ends:
Pacifism
mass meat-eating
religion
profligate consumerism
toothless environmentalism
corporatism
"democracy"
ethical absolutism
hippyism
mysticalism
Positivism
internationalism
multilateralism, etc.
I fully admit that "the plot" will certainly include some or even most of the above, and I also assume that we will utterly fail, in part or directly because of them.
My scenario is built on what is possible and what is achievable, and formed around what it would take to get there. I also submit that, however insane or conventionally unlikely such events seem now, I suspect circumstances will expand the concept of what is "rational".
At this time in history, in our culture, what is "rational" is tightly constricted by a culture kept under pressure. I predict, along with the great "deflation" of the next several years, an explansion of what is considered rational, as people are forced to confront realities.
What do first world technological capitalists with huge standing armies do when the chips are down and destruction of the world is in the offing?
The culture is going to get a shot in the arm, just as the boomer old guard is hanging up its hat and retiring. The youngsters are going to be willing to give up the old lifestyles and embrace crusades and conflicts. They are not going to accept attrition, or a role of powerlessness in the face of planetary destruction. They are going to decide to give up meat practically overnight as soon as the logic of that conclusion sets in. And they are going to be enthusiastic and competent button-pushing, satellite-targetting, cyber-war operatives.
Generation Xers are going to help demolish the apparatus if the old guard refuses to give up the keys to the Cadillac. Then, it will have body armor rivetted to it and leave the old people in a cloud of dust as they dispense with the muddling moralism of the past as they race to their date with destiny.
A war with a clear goal and high moral purpose is something only the oldest of old-timers are going to recognize.
OK I'm going to pull rank here & point out that I was involved with the Green movement in the UK in the late 80's & early 90's.
Everything you have explained here was predicated in the conversations we had back then & the eventual rise of 'eco-fascism' was INEVITABLE - if we failed in our sworn duty. This arguement you have pulled out was something we knew would be talked about in the future if we screwed up.
So well done, thanks for pulling the old skeleton out of the Green cupboard. But look, you have to realise where all this is going. This again, was predicted. Once you have given the 'Green' mandate to politicians that it's OK to use totalitarian force, how long do you think they will stick with that manifesto?
And after that you have lost everything. The 'war' will have been lost before the first missile ever leaves its silo.
We are talking about the biggest issue of the 21'st century here and you should NOT (pointing accusing finger) lose your faith now. Even if it does, currently, just involve little cristaly things dangling in the window and vegan curries the 'sustainable' vision is still alive & I personally would rather keep that as my 'Armour of Rightousness' than all the nukes in the world.
And who knows, one day, we may even win, because you never-know, at the end of the day, who may also be on our side. I'll raise a secret glass of home-brew to that one (smile).
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
JPL wrote:
This again, was predicted. Once you have given the 'Green' mandate to politicians that it's OK to use totalitarian force, how long do you think they will stick with that manifesto?
Interesting. I am reminded of a dialog from a film, title not recalled.
Actor 1: So would you cut down every tree in England to get at the Devil?
Actor 2: Yes! Without hesitation.
Actor 1: And what do you do when the Devil turns on you, and there are no trees to hide behind?
We're going to get fascism. We'll get totalitarianism. We must, as you point out, be very cautious about adding a dimension of righteous rage to the mix, lest we pour out a hell-brew that will make even my dark visions pale by comparison. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
Jack wrote:
JPL wrote:
This again, was predicted. Once you have given the 'Green' mandate to politicians that it's OK to use totalitarian force, how long do you think they will stick with that manifesto?
Interesting. I am reminded of a dialog from a film, title not recalled.
Actor 1: So would you cut down every tree in England to get at the Devil?
Actor 2: Yes! Without hesitation.
Actor 1: And what do you do when the Devil turns on you, and there are no trees to hide behind?
We're going to get fascism. We'll get totalitarianism. We must, as you point out, be very cautious about adding a dimension of righteous rage to the mix, lest we pour out a hell-brew that will make even my dark visions pale by comparison.
Hi Jack,
Well maybe, just maybe, you could also persuade a certain nation to just do us all out here a favour & not try (once again) to justify the next war on [fill in obscure disneyland morality here]. I don't think the rest of the world can stand it any more.
It's like watching a Marx Brothers film. Seriously...
JP
Edit: toned down to avoid insulting a pal (you know me - grin)
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
JPL wrote:
It's like watching a Marx Brothers film. Seriously...
History repeats itself; the first time is tragic, the second is a farce. Thus, your Marx brothers analogy is apropos.
But I think we should consider a different film; Chaplain's "Little Dictator" comes to mind.
I also suspect there will be plenty of wars, with plenty of people coming up with great reasons for those wars. It's too bad you've lost your appetite after the first course....in a 10 course meal.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Blistered Whippet Reports
JPL wrote:
Well maybe, just maybe, you could also persuade a certain nation to just do us all out here a favour & not try (once again) to justify the next war on [fill in obscure disneyland morality here]. I don't think the rest of the world can stand it any more.
It's like watching a Marx Brothers film. Seriously...
JP
Edit: toned down to avoid insulting a pal (you know me - grin)
I don't understand it any more than you do.
It seems like a stupid waste of money and blood to me. _________________
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