Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: waste processing PO style
aside from compost toilets, are there any (pref. sustainably-oriented) alternatives to traditional septic systems?
my concern about compost toilets is that they seem to rely on regular addition of materials that, should the economy as it exists today go away (i.e. shipping and availability of items) might not be so easy to continually provide for oneself over the years. ergo, peat moss, or pine shavings, sawdust, or whatever. the self-made ones are the most flexible but as much sh*t flows through this house in a day, i'm not looking forward to carting a bucket of it out to the compost pile every day or two , especially all winter long. cleaning the kitty litter box is enough of a challenge.
whereas the nice pre-fab semi-automated compost toilets all seem to rely on proprietary ingredients or a very limited range of carbon matter to function, which could present an accessibility and/or self-sufficiency problem down the line.
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:15 am Post subject: Re: waste processing PO style
mindfarkk wrote:
aside from compost toilets, are there any (pref. sustainably-oriented) alternatives to traditional septic systems?
There are plenty of books on the subject of 'humaure'. For the process to be 'healthy' 2 things should happen to your waste chain.
1) Heating to at least 165 deg for at least 30 mins
2) put as many critters/plants inbetween your waste and you eating the Carbon again.
1) can be accomplished via solar pasturization. Solar ovens as an example. Or you can hot compost the material.
2) If you took the pastuized waste, fed it to worms, took the vemipost and dumped it on grass, fed the grass to rabbit/goat/cow then ate the meat, that puts a few critters in the 'path'. Or used it on grass, composted the grass, used that compost on the garden then ate the garden produce, that too give nature time to break down any 'undesired' DNA/RNA.
2a) Use of Black Soldier Fly larve creates food for critters/"valuable" chemicals.
(see http://www.esrla.com/brazil/frame.htm Upsides - the flys are not diesease vectors, they self seperate and they kill fly larve that DOES act as a diesease vector)
Example of PO style sewage processing - for $15 a day you can use a worm gin and process 10 tons of dewatered sewage. (now you just need ppl to stop contaminating sewage with all kinds of non-crap crap like heavy metals, paints, solvents et la.)
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2337 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject:
They look really neat, but even without reading it they are past my limit for maintenance, time and cost. how can we leave a smaller footprint on the earth, if we keep building these one use systems? Especially since there is a limit to how much each module can process, so if your waste increases, you have to add new modules.
I saw a septic set up where instead of ending in a septic tank it ended in a watershed/ bog or whatever you have.
Recently I saw a composting toilet where it fell through a tube in the floor to a container on the outside of your house. this container had a crank so you could crank it to mix it with compost. this let you only have to move the waste to an actual compost pile once a week or so.
the issue of whether or not you have enough organic matter to mix in is an interesting one. you can use just about anything. if your neighbours bag up their garden waste or lawn clippings I am sure they would rather walk the bags over to your yard instead of having to fill up landfills or purchase extra garbage tags to get rid of it.
peat moss is an excellent option. you can buy peat moss compressed into large packages of 2 feet high x 18" x 15" wide for $5.00 (canadian). it expands when fluffed up and could last you a couple of weeks.
a benefit to doing this is that by using straw or peat moss you can cover your garden beds for the winter, turn it under in the spring and get a good two weeks early start on your growing season by warming the roots of your garden plants. This is a huge advantage that tons of people ignore in intensive gardening systems.
In one of those modules, the waste goes to feeding the jungle plants but has no other benefit other than not adding to the sewer/ septic system.
i'm wondering how much waste one module can process (haven't found that yet). i'm also wondering if the "jungle" wetland approach can be adapted for northern climate/ecology (although i imagine the indoor is greenhoused). it's an interesting concept and i'll look into whether it can be adapted to my needs.
again, i'm worried about getting into a system that requires goods purchased at any store when i'm aiming for total self-sufficiency. if i can use leaves or something, fine. i'm not planning on having neighbors if i can avoid them . but the manufacturers of these toilets are pretty adamant about what you add into the system.
my main interest right now is the most painless possible disposal of human waste with the least ecological impact. i.e. composting is fine, and i'll do it regardless if there is no other solution, but i'd like it to be painless (i.e not gross and mostly convenient) if possible. i haven't (yet) found a composting solution that was painless (enough) and promised to work with *any* dry organic (carbon) matter, they pretty much insist on a narrow range, like i said. that is not acceptable.
Is it possible you're overthinking the problem? What's wrong with the old-fashioned, time-tested two-hole privy? Or are you committed to somethign inside the house?
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject:
I heard about a system some folks built themselves which was an indoor privy type arrangement elevated enough so a 55 gallon drum fit under that side of the house - waste went into the drum, topped off with any sort of carbonaceous material (sawdust, straw, leaves, dry grass). When the drum was full it was moved with a small tractor and replaced with an empty one. If you used a smaller drum,or didn't fill it as full, it could be moved on a handtruck. These systems don't have to be elaborate. The only health danger is as pointed out, getting your own crap on your own food. Put some plants and animals between you and the crap, and you're fine. Composting toilets are fancy mainly in order to cut down odors, but if you have a privy in a separate building or separated from the main house by a hall, or some other arrangement to mitigate stinkiness, you should be fine.
Is it possible you're overthinking the problem? What's wrong with the old-fashioned, time-tested two-hole privy? Or are you committed to somethign inside the house?
Cash
honestly cash i don't know much about it. it probably would be nice to have it inside the house, especially since it gets freezing cold around here. but mainly i just don't know how a privy works - not that i can't look it up. i'm thinking building codes and septic system requirements and alternatives and if you don't compost or somehow process the waste, where does it go? i'm thinking decades, maybe generations, in a world where there isn't a roto rooter truck to call in if the septic tank tanks.
a lot depends on how much time and money i end up having to prepare. i tend to plan my work scalably so essential things happen first etc. etc. as much as possible. so if all i have time for is a privy - so be it. or a seat on top of a bucket - so be it. but if i can, having a nice toileting system would be pretty high on my list of things that help me feel clean and human and happy. it's not far behind hot water, which is going to be another HUGE priority as soon as i can get it working. and first up of course is the farm itself, such asit may be, and shelter.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1226 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject:
The old-fashioned, hole-in-the-ground outhouse can be a serious threat to the ground water. However, an easier way is using compost worms. Use a composting toilet design, add compost worms and enough dry stuff (straw, sawdust, dry grass, mower clippings, dropped autumn leaves...) to soak up excess liquids. Use the worm casts from the humanure to fertilise fruit/nut/timber trees. _________________ Kind regards, Katkinkate
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
Much of the scare talk about outhouses originated with building code writers who wanted to force privies out of backyards. As long as you're careful to keep outhouses -- and barns and animal loafing pens and other sources of fecal contaminants -- downslope from your well or spring, there's really nothing to worry about. To contaminate drinking water, the fecal matter as to come in direct contact with it. Once it's been filtered through a few feet of soil, there's really nothing to worry about. If that were'nt the case, every drop of water would have been contaminated beyond potability millenia ago. I mean, let's face it, there's a LOT of crap out there.
The outhouse in one of the houses I lived in as a child was at the far end of the attached shed and extremely tidy. Another one was in a separate building out back -- the reason privies were often called backhouses -- and worked very well for a family of eight. Once the pit it filled, you dig another one a few feet away and start all over again, or if you have a more formalized two-holer, you use the pit under one hole until it's full, then close it up and use the other side. In a year or three, you dig the composted waste out the filled side and start over again.
composted human waste is a valuable source of nutrients for plants. It is available every day, no matter where you go. If you have a problem using the product on your garden, consider the alternative uses:
a separate compost heap for human waste is entirely practical. This gives you the "clean" pile and the "dirty" pile. If the high temperatures are not achieved in the dirty pile to kill pathogens, time is useful in allowing the natural microbes in the soil and compost to compete with the pathogens. A year in a pile tremendously lowers the threat of disease.
An adult human produces 1.5 quarts of urine in a day, with a carbon to nitrogne ratio of 2:1. Feces production ranges from .5 to 1 pounds per day, with a CN ratio of around 15. Over the course of a year, an adult human produces over 1000 pounds of urine, and over 200 pounds of feces. This is sufficient to produce a ton of compost after being mixed with appropriate volumes of browns, e.g straw, dried hay, leaves.
Once you have the dirty pile developed to a state where it can be used on plants, put as many filters in place as possible between you and the dirty pile.
1 compost heap
2 soil
3 non edible vegetation
4 clean compost heap for non-edible vegetation wastes
5 soil
6 edible vegetation for livestock
7 livestock
8 human consumption of livestock
using the dirty compost on animal crops offers 7 different filters between the pile and the person, with a great deal of time and microbial activity in between.
use it on flower beds. The flowers attract pollenating bees and support the hive. You don't consume the flowers. You don't use the "clean" compost for growing the flowers, offsetting the demand for clean compost for use on consumption crops.
use it around trees which you intend to use for lumber, fuel wood, shade or simply to grow leaves to add to the clean pile.
use it on perimeter defense plants. brambles, nettles, barracuda plants, rose bushes, cacti, vines, bamboo thickets
use it on the grass over the septic tank
use it on landscaping projects
use the pile simply to grow worms for fishing
use it on non-edible crops. cotton, bayberry, biodiesel sources, bamboo, christmas trees
If the government ever taxes your compost heap, you can give them crap
you make the stuff no matter what
you have to do something with it
may as well put it to good use _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
the issue of whether or not you have enough organic matter to mix in is an interesting one.
I posed this question to the Envirolet Company, the brand of waterless composting toilet I'm going with. I asked them what local free materials I might use instead of peat moss. Will report back if they answer.
Remember also that the composting process will be simpler if you don't pee in the toilet. Use a separate container and dilute the urine 8:1 with water for garden fertilizer.
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. but the manufacturers of these toilets are pretty adamant about what you add into the system.
