Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Many people think that lack of hierarchy equals lack of leadership. That isn't so. Even in relatively egalitarian structures, there are those who command more respect, whose words carry more weight. They just don't have a title and don't need any kind of coercion to get people to listen to them. If they stop making sense people quit listening. Pretty democratic, if you ask me.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
threadbear wrote:
Many people think that lack of hierarchy equals lack of leadership. That isn't so. Even in relatively egalitarian structures, there are those who command more respect, whose words carry more weight. They just don't have a title and don't need any kind of coercion to get people to listen to them. If they stop making sense people quit listening. Pretty democratic, if you ask me.
100% agree. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Ludi wrote:
I never personally advocate "going back" to some previous way of life.
Living in a way to which we are adapted is not "going back" to anything.
Millions of people are currently living in egalitarian bands.
I was refering more to people like Kunstler, etc. Hell, I'd LOVE it. The current way of life is so artificial and damaging. I suppose "going back" is the wrong wording, reclaiming would probably be a better fit.
No, no argument here. I'd love it. I'd love it if my own kids and grandkids faced a future of living in egalitarian bands rather than facing a future of corporate America and consumerism.
I'm a firm believer that God made people to be in touch with each other and the earth. We're not built for the artificial life we currently lead. It is very dehumanizing--to say the very least.
EDIT TO ADD: I was just expressing the belief that I probably won't see that kind of lifestyle in my lifetime. The best I'm going to get of that sort of "free" life is in my fantasies/dreams.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3646 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Ludi wrote:
"Humans are best adapted to small, egalitarian bands, in the same way that wolves are adapted to packs or bees to hives. Humans flourish in such a social structure, providing us not only with our material needs, but also our universal psychological needs of belonging to such a group, of personal freedom, and of acceptance for ourselves as individuals. Hierarchical society is a social structure we left behind when we became human. It may provide for our material needs, but it fails utterly to provide for any of our psychological needs. So, we invent small, band-like societies–social circles, clubs and the like–to compensate for all the failings of hierarchy. In short, egalitarianism is an essential requirement for healthy human life; hierarchy is an utter rejection of everything that makes us human."
Ludi, most of the time I'm in solidarity with you but your nostalgia for tribal life is naive. If tribalism was so great, then Iraq and Afghanistan would be a paradise. As long as the tribes are spread out and don't start competing with eachother, it can work. But in this overpopulated world, people need to learn to tolerate differences, not split off and only pledge loyalty to your immediate tribe, distrusting anyone who lives outside of the radius of your own city block.
I know you don't like the idea that the human population will die off far enough to enable stone age hunter gatherer tribes to make a comeback, so you have to find a way of life to advocate that can fit WITHIN civilization, or at least the likely remnants of it.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
mos6507 wrote:
But in this overpopulated world, people need to learn to tolerate differences, not split off and only pledge loyalty to your immediate tribe.
True enough, but it just seems like there is some better way out there. I think everyone has some sense of it. It's like a word you know, want to use, it's on the tip of your tongue, but somehow you still can't get at it.
Maybe a future generation will come up with a better idea. Assuming we humans survive our current state of stupidity long enough for there to BE another generation with an idea.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
mos6507 wrote:
Ludi, most of the time I'm in solidarity with you but your nostalgia for tribal life is naive. If tribalism was so great, then Iraq and Afghanistan would be a paradise.
I have no "nostalgia for tribal life" - my comments and links are based on anthropolgy.
I have often and repeatedly posted about how tribes fight regularly to re-establish territorial boundaries. The fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not between tribes but between religious factions (Sunni and Shia). _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
charliebrownout wrote:
[
True enough, but it just seems like there is some better way out there. I think everyone has some sense of it. It's like a word you know, want to use, it's on the tip of your tongue, but somehow you still can't get at it.
Maybe a future generation will come up with a better idea. Assuming we humans survive our current state of stupidity long enough for there to BE another generation with an idea.
Why wait for another generation, why not join people who are working toward a different way of life now?
Oh, that's simple enough. I'm married to someone I love very much but wouldn't go for that sort of thing. Hell, even my thoughts on moving the fam into a more "walkable" lifestyle met with opposition.
If it were JUST me, I'd probably go join in with the permaculture folks setting up homesteads right now.
I applaud anyone currently invovled in living out/creating their own ideal living situation. I'm trying to be persuasive, but ultimately, I'm not sure how far I'll get with that.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Ludi wrote:
I have no "nostalgia for tribal life" - my comments and links are based on anthropolgy.
I have often and repeatedly posted about how tribes fight regularly to re-establish territorial boundaries. The fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not between tribes but between religious factions (Sunni and Shia).
I have to say, tribes fighting with sticks and stones would be preferable to missiles, white phosphorus, nukes, tanks, etc.
It would still be a brutal death, but at least it would char the landscape so badly.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
charliebrownout wrote:
I applaud anyone currently invovled in living out/creating their own ideal living situation. I'm trying to be persuasive, but ultimately, I'm not sure how far I'll get with that.
Yep, it's a challenge, definitely. I've only made the tiniest steps myself. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
charliebrownout wrote:
I have to say, tribes fighting with sticks and stones would be preferable to missiles, white phosphorus, nukes, tanks, etc.
It would still be a brutal death, but at least it would char the landscape so badly.
Some gave up serious fighting and instead engaged in something more like sports, in which killing wasn't the main goal, to decide territorial limits. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
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