How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
I hear where you're coming from, but I'm reminded of something I read about broadcast media. It was a psychological study that found that while watching or listening to information counter to your already formed opinon on a subject wasn't likely to change your opinion, it did cause people to think about the issues talked about on the broadcast. It's the biggest form of psychological manipulaion used in media today, and we should all be aware of it.
Is the real issue here who to blame for high prices? The question itself is misleading. A better question is "Why is oil/finished product so expensive?" Laying blame only serves political agendas, which is really what Rush is all about. If you listen carefully, you'll see he only presents solutions in a verbal framework that either advances his agenda, or undermines someone else's by setting up the questions/discussions to focus on other's weaknesses or his own argument's strengths.
Why is oil expensive? Demand excedes supply. Is increasing supply going to fix the problem? No. China/India will just increase demand. Lower prices now would only make our problem worse by creating more demand which will eventually fall short. The bigger the demand gets before demand destruction hits, the more dramatic and destructive the economic crash will be.
Does Rush talk about the problem in the point of view "What are we going to do because oil consumption can no longer fuel our economy?" No - it goes directly against his political agenda for people to be thinking about that question.
Always be aware of WHAT people are trying to get you to think about. Be critical. Be aware. Be skeptical. And be very careful about the ideas your mind is processing when you aren't paying attention. It slowly changes the WAY you think. :/
Cheers.
Flow wrote:
I listen to Rush all of the time. I gotta admit, I use to hate him and use to listen to him to get my blood boiling but the more I listened, the more I started to agree with him and I have to admit, he is right more times than he is wrong.
With regards to the oil conversations as of late, his argument is as follows:
1) 10 years ago Clinton vetoed a bill that would have allowed us to drill in ANWR. People are now saying that it would take about 10 years to get to the point that we could get 1 million barrels a day out of ANWR which we would be getting right now which would be helping out today.
...
I am almost certain that nobody that posts on this thread has listened to more than an hour of Rush in their lifetime but I agree with him almost 100% on most of these issues (didn't use to but it I have nothing else to do at work with my spare time than to listen to Rush 5 days a week for 3 hours and he grows on you if you get past your anger toward his message and think about what he says).
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
kublikhan wrote:
Reminds me of the old Cree Indian Proverb:
Quote:
Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money.
Haha, even that is wishful thinking. We still won't understand. We will turn to blaming someone/something else for our woes. It was all the fault of <insert today's demon>!
We can go extinct before the last tree is cut... humanity overestimates its own power... lol, and humanity is just a grain of sand in the infinity of space and time. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
I was quoting Rush when I said the "Liberal Controlled" media but one has to admit that MSNBC and CNN are more to the left and Fox is more to the right.
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
In response to jbrovont, I always keep an open mind. I listen to Morning Joe on MSNBC for a couple hours for some good Republican bashing, then go over to Fox News for the opposite. Rush from noon to 3pm and at night I try to catch Keith Obberman on MSNBC. Of the group, Fox News is the absolute worse. I find that if you take in both sides you can sift through the spin and kinda find something close to the truth somewhere in the middle because neither party is right IMO.
With regards to the the concept of Peak Oil, I tend to agree with Rush more than anything. If we had started drilling all over the place years ago, we would not be in this situation or at least to a much lesser extent. But the reason we can't do this is because of a man made myth and environmental wacko's that would much rather see millions of people die and kill each other for food than to see a stupid caribou chip an antler on a pipeline in the middle of the tundra. Or even worse yet, a bird might get chopped up by a wind turbine so we better not put any more wind farms up to "help the environment. And for what cause? They want the world to be a better place for their children to grow up in? Cannibalism because we cannot grow food because we cannot drill for oil to sustain life is not my idea of a better world and I most definitely don't want my children to have to endure anything close to that. So who do I choose - people over beasts.
I also believe that high gas prices could be a great thing as well. People will not take this for long before there the politicians will have to do something about it rather than point fingers. I love to quote Michael Moore from a Keith Obberman show about a year ago (I forget what they were talking about). The basic gist was, the Republicans love to use small deviations/distractions to take the focus away from the issue at hand so that you think about what was said and not the problem. Democrats use the same technique but not as well as the Republicans do. They can keep pointing fingers and laying blame but as some point people will not take it anymore and demand answers. Politicians in an attempt to save their jobs might actually do something about it. I could be smoking crack but there is hope (cause without hope, why bother keep going on).
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
mark wrote:
He's giving us all a glimpse at our immediate future. By that I mean, we're going to blame:
* the democrats because they stopped us from drilling for our oil right here in america.
* The Arabs because they're not producing enough oil.
* The environmentalist because they stopped us from drilling, and building more production
The message is that we could, (and with a repub congress could) go right on living the non-negotiable american dream.
And none of the candidates even talk about the changes that must be made simply to survive.
And you wonder why I remain a doomer?
The real Christian right is no longer listening to Rush with such enthusiasm. I'm not sure whether it was the first or second drug bust that did it, but we caught on.
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
Flow wrote:
I am almost certain that nobody that posts on this thread has listened to more than an hour of Rush in their lifetime but I agree with him almost 100% on most of these issues (didn't use to but it I have nothing else to do at work with my spare time than to listen to Rush 5 days a week for 3 hours and he grows on you if you get past your anger toward his message and think about what he says).
I listen to Rush almost everyday, it's entertaining. I do think he really believes what he says, I am a conservative also and not an environmentalist.
1. Instead of building refineries at home, the environmentalist wackos + liberals/dems have prohibited building more here. As a result refineries have been built in Canada instead and we have to pay slightly more to have it shipped here.
2. The liberals/environmentalist have also prevented us from drilling in places that could increase supply. They have also pushed alternative failures because they think they are clean since they are just retarded. Such as the hydrogen car, liberals think that hydrogen cars are 100% clean and produce no greenhouse gases. Ethanol is also another big failure, we are subsidizing corn being made for it. Companies that produce just Ethanol have negative earnings balance sheets.
3. Conservatives want the market to figure things out instead of government trying to back ethanol and fail. Rush doesn't want government to bail out homeowners. It is bad for people that want to buy a home, now a lot of people will have to live in an apartment for the rest of their life since home prices are to high.
You see, there are generally 2 political beliefs.
One is the social liberal and economically conservative type. This person tends to want gov laws that benefit just them and do not care about anybody else. Such as welfare programs, free health care, less taxes for the poor (since liberals tend to be poor). And economically conservative such as, preventing us from drilling, building refineries, preventing nuclear plants from being built, prevent dams from being built, prevent trees from being cut, prevent big oil from making any money and prevent "price gouging", raising minimum wages, passing the American's with disabilities act, control exactly the type of fuel refiners need to make from crude oil, I could go on but I'll end it here.
Then there is the social conservative and economically liberal type. This person tends to want more fair gov laws, such as taxing everyone the same (these people tend to be richer than liberals). Don't want government to hand out free health care and enforce immigration laws. For economically liberal, it is drilling everywhere, building refineries, cut tree's, etc...
What rush is saying is that the MARKET will figure out what to do when there is a lack of fuel. rush does see peak oil as a liberals excuse for alternatives. The drive by media is also retarded. I watch the news and they bring in a damn helicopter for a 10 second clip of a small car accident causing car traffic, then they always bring up every single rape or flasher since a bunch of feminist watch and run it. Nobody cares, really. WOW somebody just flashed and now its on the news for 5 minutes. "I was so shocked somebody flashed!! I can't believe it." The media spends more time on reporting flashers than bank robbers. Then the media bashes bush all the time. Only old liberals watch that crap all day long. Then there is the View, bunch of damn feminazis.
Ok, I am not a rush zombie and know i've made several generalizations but they seem to have truth to them. The liberals are raising college tuitions by their constant subsidizations and being racist against white people! I've looked from a liberal's POV (point of view), there will never be a "majority" democratic nominee again. If your female or not white then you'll get elected since the liberals feel guilt from the possibility of appearing to be racist/sexist.
The main thing about rush and oil is that rush believes that government should not get involved in solving this, he thinks that the market will correct itself. And we should start by drilling all over the place to help gas prices. Then when they get higher (which rush thinks they won't but hes wrong) then the market will figure out a way to solve it. If the market can't solve it then how will government?
i'll finish here so I won't write a 10 page post
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
Sorry I didn't mean to come accross as saying you didn't have an open mind. I guess it's just that the straw man arguments and finger pointing I hear from a lot of talk show hosts are a pet-peeve for me - it just makes my skin crawl.
I definitely agree with you on listening to both sides to get a better picture. I do however think that Rush's idea about peak oil being caused by a lack of drilling due to environmentalists is an over simplification. There are some interesting threads on this site about the economics that lead to a slowing of new developments in the late 80s and 90s due to the relatively cheap price of oil. At the time it just didn't make financial sense to drill more. There's also a good book called The Coming Economic Collapse that covers this in good detail if you're interested.
Another factor I think worth mentioning is that the fast industrial growth occuring now is just sucking up any production slack in the system. Having more oil on the market today might mean lower prices, but more growth, making life even harder on the down slope later.
I do agree with the idea that we've seen some renewables like wind held back by environmental concerns. Bird blenders aren't very popular and there's an even stronger "not in my back yard" mentality - even more so with nuclear.
These issues are very tightly connected to the climate change issue, and the various lobbies and studies involved with that mess. I see/hear a lot of discussion about the balance of environment with industry and how we can reduce green house emmissions/pollution without causing an economic crisis. Again though I see misdirection here: people like Rush don't seem to be able to address the core issue. There are too many people straining the Earth's environment. The problem with driving a car isn't that it consumes a gallon of gas for every 22 miles it travels. It's that we're trying to enable 3 billion people to drive their car 15,000 miles a year.
People like Rush seem to want to make us think we're choosing between feeding/supporting people and protecting the environment. In reality a big chunk of those 6+ billion were screwed when they entered the world, because even with all our technology, the earth can't support them. Not at the level we're trying to. Pumping every last drop of oil, cutting down every tree and developing every acre of airable land isn't going to change that. It will only guarantee that the future environment will be able to support even fewer people. That just equates to increased suffering.
Flow wrote:
In response to jbrovont, I always keep an open mind. I listen to Morning Joe on MSNBC for a couple hours for some good Republican bashing, then go over to Fox News for the opposite. Rush from noon to 3pm and at night I try to catch Keith Obberman on MSNBC. Of the group, Fox News is the absolute worse. I find that if you take in both sides you can sift through the spin and kinda find something close to the truth somewhere in the middle because neither party is right IMO.
With regards to the the concept of Peak Oil, I tend to agree with Rush more than anything. If we had started drilling all over the place years ago, we would not be in this situation or at least to a much lesser extent. But the reason we can't do this is because of a man made myth and environmental wacko's that would much rather see millions of people die and kill each other for food than to see a stupid caribou chip an antler on a pipeline in the middle of the tundra. Or even worse yet, a bird might get chopped up by a wind turbine so we better not put any more wind farms up to "help the environment. And for what cause? They want the world to be a better place for their children to grow up in? Cannibalism because we cannot grow food because we cannot drill for oil to sustain life is not my idea of a better world and I most definitely don't want my children to have to endure anything close to that. So who do I choose - people over beasts.
I also believe that high gas prices could be a great thing as well. People will not take this for long before there the politicians will have to do something about it rather than point fingers. I love to quote Michael Moore from a Keith Obberman show about a year ago (I forget what they were talking about). The basic gist was, the Republicans love to use small deviations/distractions to take the focus away from the issue at hand so that you think about what was said and not the problem. Democrats use the same technique but not as well as the Republicans do. They can keep pointing fingers and laying blame but as some point people will not take it anymore and demand answers. Politicians in an attempt to save their jobs might actually do something about it. I could be smoking crack but there is hope (cause without hope, why bother keep going on).
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 471 Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
Flow wrote:
I listen to Rush all of the time. I gotta admit, I use to hate him and use to listen to him to get my blood boiling but the more I listened, the more I started to agree with him and I have to admit, he is right more times than he is wrong.
With regards to the oil conversations as of late, his argument is as follows:
1) 10 years ago Clinton vetoed a bill that would have allowed us to drill in ANWR. People are now saying that it would take about 10 years to get to the point that we could get 1 million barrels a day out of ANWR which we would be getting right now which would be helping out today.
2) Bush asked Saudi to increase output by 1 million barrels a day, which somebody says (possibly Joe Biden) would lower the price of oil by about $25 a barrel but then quotes Joe Biden as saying that the 1 million barrels a day out of ANWR would only lower oil by a few penny's a barrel (it could be Biden made both statements - not sure on this one) to point out how politics are hard at work.
3) Yesterday or the day before he ran down the states that use the most nuclear power and pointed out that Vermont uses the most but the liberals/congressmen from Vermont are the ones that complain the loudest about no more nuclear power.
4) Dems/liberals/environmentalists won't allow us to build a new refinery anywhere or drill for more oil in ANWR or off the shores of the USA (where China is Drilling) or build nuclear power plants anywhere the turn around and blame Bush/Republicans for the high oil prices which is what the "Drive-By Liberal Controlled" Media reports non-stop.
5) The liberal controlled media (excluding Fox News) will never talk about how the Dems won't allow the items mentioned in point #4 above but they are sure happy to lay the blame on Bush/Republicans. (He also goes on to say that the Republicans are too much of a wuss to call them on it).
6) There is oil galore in the off shore areas of the USA but we are not allowed to explore or drill or anything for that matter but China is there getting tons of the stuff there.
7) Oil will never get to $200 a barrel or $12 a gallon for gas because at some point most people will not be able to afford it and it will level out right about there.
We are really screwed because the 3 candidates for President all buy into the Global Warming Myth so there is no end in sight for helping with the price of oil (his funniest quote of late is the Global Warming "Experts" are now predicting that the Earth will in fact cool down for the next decade or so and then we are really screwed after this when it starts to warm up again - they really, really mean it this time).
9) (While we are on the subject) Global warming is about one thing - money. How will governments around the world be able to soak money out of people with "Carbon Taxes" - that 20ish years ago there was an ice age coming (I remember hearing about this when I was a kid) which became global warming (can't make up their minds on this one). That scientists who speak up against global warming are soon fired or grants cut off, etc so they have no option but to go with the flow and manipulate the data to show global warming is cause by humans (and not part of the natural cycle of the Earth's climate) i.e. ignore the effect on water vapor in the atmosphere (something we cannot control) to manipulate the models to show how the earth will warm up due to man made products. That we can't predict what the weather will be 5 days from now but we know for certain that the world will warm up X number of degrees in the next 10, 20, 30 or more years down the road.
10) The real reason why the oil companies shut down all of the refineries in the 70s is because the environmental constraints placed on keeping them running was not cost effective so they closed them (plus at the time we didn't need them anyway). They were old and the cost to get them up to standard was much more than what they could have made with them. And once again, this same group of people are the same ones that will not let us build new refineries anywhere for any reason.
10) Ethanol and Biofuels are joke. All they have managed to do is raise the price of food, cause food shortages and are no more clean than anything before them. Plus they lowered the effectiveness of fuel so we have to use even more of it to go the same distance. But we are federally mandated to use them
I am almost certain that nobody that posts on this thread has listened to more than an hour of Rush in their lifetime but I agree with him almost 100% on most of these issues (didn't use to but it I have nothing else to do at work with my spare time than to listen to Rush 5 days a week for 3 hours and he grows on you if you get past your anger toward his message and think about what he says).
Yes, yes, yes, it's all the dems/liberals fault. Limbaugh ignores that the fact that the GOP has controlled Government for 20 out of 28 years. He has ignores the fact that the GOP controlled Congress for 1994 to 2006. Limbaugh exists for one reason only: entertainment. After that, he serves the vital function of causing you dear reader to blame liberals/dems/anyone not an R/muselims/obama/clinton for all of your problems.
The big irony for me is the core of conservativism is about self-reliance. Rush/Hanity/Coulter demonstrate none of that. They only know how to blame others and fail to accept responsibility for anything.
Keep on smokin' that crack pipe and listen to ol' Rush!
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
Flow wrote:
I was quoting Rush when I said the "Liberal Controlled" media but one has to admit that MSNBC and CNN are more to the left and Fox is more to the right.
There is this notion that media bias effectively brainwashes the public into an ideology. Like if you watch Fox News you'll be transformed into Bill O'Reilly. I think it's more that these channels are designed to service a preexisting demographic, NOT change people's minds. So whether Fox is conservative or MSNBC is liberal is meaningless. People will decide which news to watch based on their own preferences. So reality is filtered and spun specifically for them.
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 471 Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Limbaugh speaks about OIL!!!
Flow wrote:
I listen to Rush all of the time. I gotta admit, I use to hate him and use to listen to him to get my blood boiling but the more I listened, the more I started to agree with him and I have to admit, he is right more times than he is wrong.
With regards to the oil conversations as of late, his argument is as follows:
1) 10 years ago Clinton vetoed a bill that would have allowed us to drill in ANWR. People are now saying that it would take about 10 years to get to the point that we could get 1 million barrels a day out of ANWR which we would be getting right now which would be helping out today.
2) Bush asked Saudi to increase output by 1 million barrels a day, which somebody says (possibly Joe Biden) would lower the price of oil by about $25 a barrel but then quotes Joe Biden as saying that the 1 million barrels a day out of ANWR would only lower oil by a few penny's a barrel (it could be Biden made both statements - not sure on this one) to point out how politics are hard at work.
3) Yesterday or the day before he ran down the states that use the most nuclear power and pointed out that Vermont uses the most but the liberals/congressmen from Vermont are the ones that complain the loudest about no more nuclear power.
4) Dems/liberals/environmentalists won't allow us to build a new refinery anywhere or drill for more oil in ANWR or off the shores of the USA (where China is Drilling) or build nuclear power plants anywhere the turn around and blame Bush/Republicans for the high oil prices which is what the "Drive-By Liberal Controlled" Media reports non-stop.
5) The liberal controlled media (excluding Fox News) will never talk about how the Dems won't allow the items mentioned in point #4 above but they are sure happy to lay the blame on Bush/Republicans. (He also goes on to say that the Republicans are too much of a wuss to call them on it).
6) There is oil galore in the off shore areas of the USA but we are not allowed to explore or drill or anything for that matter but China is there getting tons of the stuff there.
7) Oil will never get to $200 a barrel or $12 a gallon for gas because at some point most people will not be able to afford it and it will level out right about there.
We are really screwed because the 3 candidates for President all buy into the Global Warming Myth so there is no end in sight for helping with the price of oil (his funniest quote of late is the Global Warming "Experts" are now predicting that the Earth will in fact cool down for the next decade or so and then we are really screwed after this when it starts to warm up again - they really, really mean it this time).
9) (While we are on the subject) Global warming is about one thing - money. How will governments around the world be able to soak money out of people with "Carbon Taxes" - that 20ish years ago there was an ice age coming (I remember hearing about this when I was a kid) which became global warming (can't make up their minds on this one). That scientists who speak up against global warming are soon fired or grants cut off, etc so they have no option but to go with the flow and manipulate the data to show global warming is cause by humans (and not part of the natural cycle of the Earth's climate) i.e. ignore the effect on water vapor in the atmosphere (something we cannot control) to manipulate the models to show how the earth will warm up due to man made products. That we can't predict what the weather will be 5 days from now but we know for certain that the world will warm up X number of degrees in the next 10, 20, 30 or more years down the road.
10) The real reason why the oil companies shut down all of the refineries in the 70s is because the environmental constraints placed on keeping them running was not cost effective so they closed them (plus at the time we didn't need them anyway). They were old and the cost to get them up to standard was much more than what they could have made with them. And once again, this same group of people are the same ones that will not let us build new refineries anywhere for any reason.
10) Ethanol and Biofuels are joke. All they have managed to do is raise the price of food, cause food shortages and are no more clean than anything before them. Plus they lowered the effectiveness of fuel so we have to use even more of it to go the same distance. But we are federally mandated to use them
I am almost certain that nobody that posts on this thread has listened to more than an hour of Rush in their lifetime but I agree with him almost 100% on most of these issues (didn't use to but it I have nothing else to do at work with my spare time than to listen to Rush 5 days a week for 3 hours and he grows on you if you get past your anger toward his message and think about what he says).
Yes, yes, yes, it's all the dems/liberals fault. Limbaugh ignores that the fact that the GOP has controlled Government for 20 out of 28 years. He has ignores the fact that the GOP controlled Congress for 1994 to 2006. Limbaugh exists for one reason only: entertainment. After that, he serves the vital function of causing you dear reader to blame liberals/dems/anyone not an R/muselims/obama/clinton for all of your problems.
The big irony for me is the core of conservativism is about self-reliance. Rush/Hanity/Coulter demonstrate none of that. They only know how to blame others and fail to accept responsibility for anything.
Keep on smokin' that crack pipe and listen to ol' Rush!
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We are really screwed because the 3 candidates for President all buy into the Global Warming Myth so there is no end in sight for helping with the price of oil (his funniest quote of late is the Global Warming "Experts" are now predicting that the Earth will in fact cool down for the next decade or so and then we are really screwed after this when it starts to warm up again - they really, really mean it this time).
