For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
eclipse wrote:
From Dr Gerry Wolff, an expert in Solar thermal technologies and leading member of the TREC movement.
Quote:
I believe that any albedo effect would be very small and probably in the right direction - helping to cool the planet.
The MED-CSP report from the German Aerospace Centre (which can be downloaded from http://www.trec-uk.org.uk/reports.htm) contains a section on the environmental impacts of CSP plants and albedo has only one brief mention. Clearly, it is not regarded as a significant problem. Perhaps you could post something to that effect in the appropriate part of the forum.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find the section on environmental impacts. Do you have a more direct link?
It's not necessarily just albedo that might have an impact but maybe the diversion of solar energy and the covering of land, and possibly other aspects, may have impacts, some local, some more widely dispersed. Note that I'm not comparing solar to fossil fuels, I want a long term answer that works in all aspects, rather that simply rushing to replace one detrimental energy source with a less detrimental energy source. I'm inclined to go with everyone who says that, intuitively, solar will have no significant environmental impact, even up to the current level of global energy use. I'd just prefer it if we don't rely on intuition any more and actually, and objectively, looked at the potential impacts of any "solution" that is proposed, and consider the wider aspects of how our societies operate, so that we may not need as much generated energy as many think.
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
You were meant to go to the above link and look for the MED-CSP report from the German Aerospace Centre, so I've found it and I'll link it here.
Quote:
I'd just prefer it if we don't rely on intuition any more and actually, and objectively, looked at the potential impacts of any "solution" that is proposed, and consider the wider aspects of how our societies operate, so that we may not need as much generated energy as many think.
Can you just say solar thermal +
New Urbanism/eco-cities +
a Kerala (India) styled demographic transition (for population control) are all great?
Then I'll be happy and drop it. _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
I haven't really looked at those other things, so no, I can't.
Don't worry, though, most people and governments won't really consider environmental impacts. If it seems like a good solution, it'll get done, at whatever scale a society would like, and we'll just have to hope that it all works out OK.
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
What? You haven't read about how to transform San Francisco into an Eco-city? Oh my goodness! Stop what you are doing and read this now! _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
eclipse wrote:
What? You haven't read about how to transform San Francisco into an Eco-city? Oh my goodness! Stop what you are doing and read this now!
Sounds great. Good luck.
But I wonder whether those who moved to the city for what it offers now, will think about it. I also wonder what all those city people would do for work and what all those eco-friendly businesses will be.
Is it aiming for sustainability or just a longer lasting city?
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Eeeewwww! The "Peakoil.com is you" photograph had Mrs Doubtfire looking 'frisky' with a glint in her eyes. Didn't need to see that today! Eeewwww.
OK, breathe....
Now, where was I? Oh, I think the Eco-city concept is all about long-term sustainability.... for thousands of years. "Deep sustainability". Richard Register proposes we can retrofit modern high-tech cities to be living breathing ecosystems and economic centres that only require 10% of today's energy use.
But even more exciting is the William McDonough talk that announces that he's designing eco-cities for 400 million Chinese! Once they perfect the plans and designs, they'll probably be selling the know-how back to us western types. _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
eclipse wrote:
Oh, I think the Eco-city concept is all about long-term sustainability.... for thousands of years. "Deep sustainability". Richard Register proposes we can retrofit modern high-tech cities to be living breathing ecosystems and economic centres that only require 10% of today's energy use.
Sustainability is not just about energy use. I must admit that I didn't see anything on the page you linked to that suggested an eco-city would be sustainable, just that it might last a lot longer in the type of economy we have now.
Sustainability implies no growth. That's why I asked the question about what would those city folks be doing for a living. What sort of businesses would be trading in an eco-city and what would be their raison-d'etre? And how would those people be fed?
However, this is getting way off topic, maybe we ought to leave it for another discussion topic.
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
TonyPrep wrote:
yesplease wrote:
TonyPrep wrote:
Can you point to any? I'd certainly be interested to know that there are no environmental risks from solar, to a certain level of build.
The pdf I linked has a section titled...
Life Cycle Assessment of a solar electricity production and transmission scheme
That you may find interesting. There aren't any externalities associated w/ operation aside from the potential for leakage of oil if it's used as a heat carrier instead of water AFAIK.
Indeed, though it suggests an alternative heat carrier would eliminate this impact. However, as you say, it doesn't really cover the wider environmental impacts and, maybe, acknowledges this: Because not all environmental impacts were taken into account, the performed eco-balance can only be considered as general view of an eco-balance. It is essentially a study of the impacts of construction and transmission.
Read more grasshopper! The author goes on to elaborate what portion was left out and why.
Quote:
At some places not all information required was provided so that, especially what concerns the model of the HVDC lines, certain services could not be represented such as the actual construction of the overhead line, cleaning of isolators and the possible use of helicopters for transports and control flights. The share of the HVDC system in environmental impacts in comparison with the entire installation amounts to an average of 5 %, whereas a share of 80 % can be achieved material expenditures. It already turned out that the share of waste disposal in the total balance is small. The non-consideration of this process for the HVDC line should not increase the actual end result significantly.
Clearly not being able to account for the totality of the HVDC line impact isn't insignificant, however it is much smaller than the rest of the project, and along the same lines, if the author was alluding to externalities of solar thermal operation as well, then according to what they said those would be much smaller than the services not represented with HVDC, which is much smaller than the total. Otoh, they may not be alluding to the externalities of solar thermal operation they were unable to measure, just those of HVDC. Speaking of which, we should probably contact the author and see if they could clarify that.
TonyPrep wrote:
Which is why I also support a reduction in energy use. Specifically, fossil fuel energy use.
In my wildest wettest dreams (not exactly ) I'd love to see what IMO could be an across the board reduction to ~40-60% of current use w/ an increase in quantifiable living standards while renewables infrastructure is built up, but it seems that a lot of people don't want to gain wealth by creating wealth and would rather see to it's accumulation via transfers. Prisoner's dilemma and alla that. _________________
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
yesplease wrote:
Read more grasshopper!
I did. I didn't take the piece you quoted as directly related to the sentence I quoted; there was another sentence in between, about the simplification of some aspects. In any case, the author assigned a proportion to the HVDC sytem which is an estimate, since not all information was available.
yesplease wrote:
Speaking of which, we should probably contact the author and see if they could clarify that.
Well, the title of the report is: "Eco-balance of a Solar Electricity Transmission from North Africa to Europe" so I think the report was concentrating on the transmission of the electricity, rather than the method of producing that electricity.
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Quote:
Sustainability implies no growth. That's why I asked the question about what would those city folks be doing for a living. What sort of businesses would be trading in an eco-city and what would be their raison-d'etre? And how would those people be fed?
Yes, this IS getting off topic. Solar thermal can provide all our energy needs — yet you don't like that and insist there's some alarming 'thing' we haven't figured out about solar thermal, and so I talked about how we could reduce energy usage through eco-city plans, but now that's not good enough for you because the eco-city doesn't deal with growth, and .... like many doomers... keeping you happy and answering your many objections is a moving target.
Eco-cities don't have to deal with growth, they just have to be an eco-city. They're very good at being eco-cities and reducing our energy consumption, and so I think we should applaud the efforts on that behalf... a sustainable city.
Solar thermal is very good at being a low Co2 energy source. We should just thank it, and leave it at that.
Finally, having the basic needs of human life guaranteed with the most basic nutrition and clean water, shelter, education (especially for women), medical assistance and family planning... with a little economic security for old age, are all the prime ingredients for dealing with population growth. Apparently this can be achieved for the world population with only 5% of the world's military budget. Now THERE's a campaign worth fighting for! _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
eclipse wrote:
Solar thermal can provide all our energy needs — yet you don't like that and insist there's some alarming 'thing' we haven't figured out about solar thermal, and so I talked about how we could reduce energy usage through eco-city plans, but now that's not good enough for you because the eco-city doesn't deal with growth, and .... like many doomers... keeping you happy and answering your many objections is a moving target.
I have never said I don't like solar thermal and there is no moving target; it is fixed and clear: we must move towards (and reach) not using any resource beyond its renewal rate and towards (and reach) not damaging our habitat in the process. If we don't reach a sustainable society, what is the alternative?
eclipse wrote:
Eco-cities don't have to deal with growth, they just have to be an eco-city. They're very good at being eco-cities and reducing our energy consumption, and so I think we should applaud the efforts on that behalf... a sustainable city.
Well I wished you luck. However, if it, ultimately, can't fit in to a sustainable society then it will be to no avail - maybe current or near future generations will benefit from such moves but, if it is unsustainable, the generations after that will suffer.
eclipse wrote:
Solar thermal is very good at being a low Co2 energy source. We should just thank it, and leave it at that.
I've explained why we can't leave it at that for ever. If we breathe a sigh of relief that all the fossil fuel use has been replaced by clean solar, only to find that our habitat is still being degraded, just more slowly, that relief may be short lived.
eclipse wrote:
Finally, having the basic needs of human life guaranteed with the most basic nutrition and clean water, shelter, education (especially for women), medical assistance and family planning... with a little economic security for old age, are all the prime ingredients for dealing with population growth.
I have no idea how those things deal with population growth. For human quality of life, then clean water, good nutrition, shelter and pain relief are probably the only basic needs.
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The author goes on to elaborate what portion was left out and why.
