Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
November 16, 2001
Straight Talk About Some Big Words
If you are new to the Bible you may not be familiar with some of the terms associated with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Words like repentance, justification, and sanctification remain in the translations of the Bible even though they are rarely used in modern English. There are many such long words in the New Testament that convey great truths about our relationship to God in Christ and the things that Jesus accomplished on the cross. In this study we will explain these terms in plain English and hopefully reveal some part of the depth of the gospel.
The Accomplishments of the Cross
Redemption: (Rom 3:24, Rom 8:23, Col 1:13,14) The word redemption as found in the scriptures means a buying back of something lost. We were considered lost through sin and Jesus' life was given as a payment to buy us back. The use of the word redemption implies ownership regained. Who owned us when we lived in sin?
Atonement: (Rom 3:25) The idea that God's wrath must be appeased, or more precisely that our sins had demanded a retribution from a just God gives rise to the need for atonement. Jesus suffered and died, bearing our punishment so that by His shed blood our sins might not be held against us. Because of this there is now know condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Justification: (Rom 5:21) The word translated is a legal term meaning 'to be declared not guilty.' This distinction is needed because though a man may not be punished for wrongs done, he may nevertheless still be considered liable. The ramifications are seen in our own legal system. The O.J. Simpson case is a good example. Even though Mr. Simpson was acquitted in a criminal trial most people I know consider him guilty and he was found liable in a civil case. But God says that because of Jesus we are considered in all heavenly arenas not guilty. That is, no person in heaven sees us as guilty after this complete acquittal. With regards to heaven we must pay no restitution. This is not to say that restitution on earth is excluded. In fact the right response of a repentant heart is to make restitution to those on earth who have been harmed by our actions, whenever possible.
These three words set the stage for what comes next. Not only are we declared not guilty of having committed any sinful acts (justification), the sacrifice of Christ also means we will not suffer the punishment those crimes deserve (atonement), we need only be willing to turn from sin and submit to God's right to own His creation by giving ourselves to Him in exchange for freedom from sin (redemption). A complete surrender to this gracious offer gives God the legal right to do a very extraordinary thing.
Regeneration: (Tit 3:5) When we lived in sin, not having trusted Jesus Christ with our lives we were dead in our trespasses. Now having believed the gospel and committed ourselves to the Lord, God can make us alive again in our spirit. That is we can be reborn into a living relationship with God. This is what it means to be born again. To receive through this great act of God by the Holy Spirit an avenue of communion with Him in Christ.
Now the provisions of the cross do not end there, but we need to set forth the unusual act by which God has brought these things to us. As Paul says in 2Corinthians 5:21, God was placing our sins on Christ and through faith (translated trust or belief in this context) His righteousness is credited to our account. Because of this truth, ministers often refer to Christ's vicarious death (He was our substitute). The great opportunity belongs to us who identify ourselves with Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. For then God says He will identify us with Jesus Christ as pertains to righteousness. This leads to another great result of the cross.
Adoption: (Rom 8:15, Tit 3:7) God legally adopts us. We are considered to be His very children. As any good father would, He becomes actively involved in our lives, promoting us and disciplining us for our good.
Sanctification: (1Cor 1:30, 1Thes 3:12,13) When you see this word it always means 'purposely set apart.' In fact since we now belong to God we are His to use. And use us He does, to share the gospel, to teach new believers how to grow in relationship with their Heavenly Father and to be lights in this dark world. From the moment of our first commitment to Christ we were God's in a special way, but we are the more set apart unto good works as we progress in the things of God. This is because we are being conformed to the image of the Son of God by the work of the Spirit within (2Cor 3:1. It is important to note that holiness and sanctification are very closely related. Sanctification focuses more on the fact of God's ownership and His special purpose for each of us, holiness focuses on the presence of godly character brought about by God's ownership and renovation of our souls.
The Need for the Resurrection
Now this could all be accomplished without Jesus being raised form the dead right? Well, consider this, if the punishment for sin is death and Jesus bore our sins then for that He should die. But if in fact His sacrifice was accepted by God, as the Bible says it was, then those sins have been forgiven and He must be alive. So it is that His resurrection is a sign that our sins are forgiven (Rom 4:25). Also Jesus said plainly during His lifetime that He was God, a person of the Godhead (John 8:57,5. He said that He would be raised from the dead three days after being crucified and He was (Mt 20:19). So the resurrection proves that Jesus was who He said He was. Lastly, in Christ we have a promise of a like resurrection unto eternal life (Rom 6:5.) For those of us who have loved ones who have died in Christ we know that if Jesus be not raised our hope is in vain (1Cor 15:14).
Big Words About Our Part of the Deal
Repentance: (Acts 3:19, Acts 17:30,31, Heb 6:1) When we hear the good news as we ought to hear it, it will be accompanied by the presence of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who will convince us of our need for salvation if we let Him. The gift of eternal life is free, the only stipulation is that we turn from sin (repent) and commit our lives to Jesus Christ.
Consecration: (Rom 12:1,2, 2Cor 7:1) This is a term thrown around a lot by preachers in the nineteenth century but it is instructive for us today. There are many ways in which a man may build upon the foundation of Christ. Put plainly, consecration is a measure of the quality of our commitment to God. It is us choosing to pursue God with all our heart having now been given the opportunity. I leave you with this warning. Many Christians fall because they forget that they do not need to work for the grace of God. It is upon the foundation of God's gracious gift that we pursue Him. So if we set ourselves apart for the purposes of God it must eventually be because we love Him and for no other reason.
God's best always. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4408 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Repentance
Repentance is the lost art of Christianity. A lot of Christians in America today can tell you a lot about 'deep' things like dispensations or prophecy, but many have only the most basic understanding of repentance. In fact for most, the question "What is repentance?" is answered with nothing more than a quick, "Oh repentance is turning from sin". True repentance is turning from sin but the teaching of scripture on the subject is much richer than this.
True repentance is not simply asking for forgiveness for wrongs done, nor a mere admittance of sins already committed. True repentance bears fruit in a changed position with God for all future time. The fruit of that new standing with God is a life characterized by the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22.) A man who 'repents' each time that he views pornography but never gains victory over the temptation to view pornography has never repented. To walk in this place is to be double-minded and unstable at best, but possibly no more than a Biblically educated fool, a person sure to be damned, decieved by religion, not connected to the Head who is Jesus.
"But we all stumble the Bible says so!" I know, but we do not stumble over the same things for the entirety of our life. And we cannot embrace a pattern of complacency regarding anything that God calls sin. If we are 'struggling' with something there will be anguish over lapses and in Christ victory. Remember Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." So it is that we can bear with a brother who is sincerely struggling with an issue but if it is simply a pattern of deceit we must separate ourselves from this.
That said lets look at some of the topics associated with repentance in the Bible. We can show a progression through five stages.
1) Recognition of Sin (Conviction)
2) Sorrow for Sin (Conviction?)
3) Confession of Sin
4) Asking Forgiveness for Sin
5) Turning from Sin (Repentance)
1) Firstly the Bible says true repentance is accompanied by a recognition of sin (Ps 51:4). The recognition we talk about is a conviction of the sinner that his or her actions are contrary to the will of God and that they are thereby separated from God (Is 59:2). This personal conviction of sin is produced by the action of the Holy Spirit upon the soul of the sinner (Jn16:8,9) and usually acompanies the preaching of the gospel. It is not simply a recognition that we have wronged somebody but rather that we have transgressed against God (Ps 51:4). A recognition that all wrongdoing is a transgression against God who is Love (1Jn 4:. And as time progresses and we know more about those things God calls sin, the Holy Spirit works a deeper and deeper brokenness as we repent of each trait of our sinful self that is contrary to God.
2) Some people believe that conviction by the Spirit produces sorrow. Sorrow however is a reaction to circumstances or facts. We become sorrowful when we see our sin as it is and understand that for our sins Jesus died. The difference between a godly sorrow for sin and a worldly one may lie completely in a person's willingness to submit to the truth of Scripture. Paul said I did not know sin until the Law revealed it to me. Good evangelism always contains some preaching of the commandment so that we can see what law we have broken. The truth of Scripture is impressed upon us by the Spirit. It is the godly sorrow Paul speaks of in 2Corinthians 7:9,10 that is the next step towards true repentance.
3) Following upon godly sorrow comes confession of sin (1Jn 1:9). We are not here just admitting to someone that we have broken God's law. No this confession is directed towards God, "God I have sinned, I have broken Your law."
4) John also says we must ask for forgiveness (1Jn 1:9), a literal asking of forgiveness for sin from God. We must understand and know that forgiveness of sin is precisely why Jesus died (Col 1:13,14). His resurrection is the proof that forgiveness was granted (Jn 11:25,26). So if we are first timers we pray something like,
"Lord Jesus forgive me of my sins. Come into my heart and be the Lord and Savior of my life."
If we already know the Lord and have stumbled we might pray something like,
"Lord forgive me for this sin. Please search me and help me to understand why this is happening. Lord please help me to overcome in these areas. In the name of Jesus. Amen"
If this is a sincere response to the Holy Spirit, God promises to hear and apply the atoning blood of Christ to our account (1Jn 1:9). We start a new life and are considered clean in God's sight (Col 1:21,22).
5) Now recieving forgiveness from with the intent of sinning again makes no sense. If sin is an offense that can lead us to hell, it is still sin to seek fire insurance. God please forgive me, and I'll be bakc later to ask forgiveness of the sins I am going to commit after I get up off my knees. That is not salvation friends. So when these things include a real determination never to sin again, a knowledge that we were bought with a price and are now beholden ot the Lord, from this comes an attitude which abides with the penitent, an attitude of seeking to do no thing which is offensive to God, out of gratefulness for the presence of God in this life. It is this abiding attitude that produces the 'fruit meet for repentance' talked about by John the Baptist (Mt 3:7-9). That fruit being actions which reflect a changed life, actions that demonstrate a turning from sin. Before we did whatever we wanted, now we do and care for the things of God. With this pattern established in our lives struggles come only to pass, and the longer we walk with Jesus the more the struggles are purely external because our souls are being conformed more and more to the image of the Son of God (2Cor 3:1.
And glory be to God, we are not required to accomplish this in our own strength in fact we cannot do it, but rather, as many as are led by the Spirit, they are the Sons of God (Romans 8:14.)
God bless you as you seek Him and as you understand Him.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Threadbear, so you prefer the idea of a Creator who wants his children to have curious minds, rather than submissive ones?
If I were a parent, I would prefer curious children rather than submissive ones, even though I know they would be more trouble!
Yep. It's possible there has been some kind of "battle for souls" but don't know if it's been between "demonic" forces, per se, or just some group that sees the security of white bread conformity as a positive, versus group or groups who regard life as a dynamic unknowable, with the potential for limitless expression.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
November 26, 2001
The Attributes of God
One of the first courses of study for new Christians has always been the nature and character of God. Though God's attributes are among the very first things we should learn, they are not less important than the so called 'deep' things of God. In fact mature Christians must rely upon God's character everyday to wage their battle against sin. We hope in God because we believe that He has integrity and is just, otherwise why do we hope at all, if we cannot count on Him to keep His promises?
The Triune God
It is very interesting to note that the Old Testament does not talk explicitly about the existence of the Trinity, though we can deduce it and certain passages seem to imply something it. It is in the New Testament that we are given a more intimate look at the nature of God. Understanding this we are then able to see clearly many allusions to the persons of the Trinity in the Old Testament. We should start by defining what we mean by saying God is Triune. When we say that the Bible teaches us that God is Triune we are claiming that God exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are saying that these three are co-equal in power, co-eternal in life and co-operative in all things that are done by God. This is a great paradox since we also believe that God is One. One yet Three, Three yet One.
New Testament Passages
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1John 5:7
'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' Mt 28:19
Since it is the habit of some to deny the Godhood of one or more of these Three, we will list verses that support the Divinity of each.
The Father is God
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:2
The Son is God
Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'
John 8:58
The Holy Spirit is God
But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men but to God.'
Acts 5:3,4
Taking just these verses at face value it is clear that we have a Triune God. This being accepted, we cannot claim that the Bible gives us intimate details of the way in which these three distinct persons function together as One. Possibly in heaven we will understand these things more deeply if we need to. Concluding this section, we see that the use of the plural for God in Genesis 1:26 now seems clear.
Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness' Gen 1:26
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were working together in Creation. Some of you may know that we are also triune beings having a body, a soul and a spirit. This is not quite the same as the Tri-unity of God since we are truly one person with three parts, the seat of our personality residing in our soul. The Personality of God, however, resides collectively among the members of the Trinity and completely within each one. Now the paradox is apparent! What an amazing Being is God!
The Character of God
The moral attributes of God are the linchpin of our trust in Him and our belief in the promises of the Bible. Because of God's character we can be assured that our trust in Him is not in vain. Here are several of God's character traits.
God is good
Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? The goodness of God endureth continually.
Psalm 52:1
God is just.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Rev 15:3
God is patient (longsuffering)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9
God is righteous
Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice. Dan 9:14
God is love
Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1Jn 4:8
This last one 'God is love' is really the foundation and fountain of God's character. To see what kind of love God has, read 1Corinthians 13. Also consider this passage,
God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1John 4:9-12
How does God's love compare with the love we have known so far in our lives? How does it compare with the love we show to others?
The Godhead in the Plan of Redemption
Now that we have spoken about the character of God, we turn our attention to an act of God that has each member playing a specific role. In the book of Genesis we read that mankind had fallen from grace through Adam. Therefore every human was born separated from God. The plan of redemption is God's great act of purchasing again the lost race of man. What follows is a brief description of the role of each member of the Trinity in the plan of redemption.
The Lord Jesus Christ
It was Jesus' place to be born as a baby in a manger, to live a sinless life and be sacrificed for the sins of the world. It is His act of selfless love that has brought forgiveness of sins to anyone who believes.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit not only led Jesus throughout His lifetime, He was the active force in raising Him from the dead. Also now the Holy Spirit is a guide, teacher and comforter to the saints in Christ Jesus. He is the seal of our redemption.
The Father
Understanding the Father's role in the plan of redemption is not so easy as we might think. We might say that He supplied the power but then we believe the Three are co-equal. In the Bible we often see Jesus seeking and relying on the Father for direction. We might infer from some passages of Scripture that during His time on earth (having 'disrobed' Himself of certain privileges of Divinity), He was completely dependent upon the will of the Father revealed to Him by the Holy Spirit. God the Father is often seen as the central figure in the Godhead, Jesus Christ as the central figure in redemption and the Holy Spirit as the Hand of God moving in the earth.
In conclusion we can say that our relationship with God is with The Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, it is with the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in Scripture are we admonished to pray to the Holy Spirit, but we do thank God for Him. We can then pray to the Father in the Name of the Son, and to the Son in His own Name, both of these we do in the Holy Spirit through faith.
I hope this short study will encourage you to meditate more deeply upon the nature and character of God, after all we will be spending an eternity together with Him.
God's best. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
As far as this means having the mind of one who is completely set free to let every thought be of service to God again I must agree.
Wait, not having the proper mind of a child (just a feeble one), I'm already confused!
Are you saying the Christian never has a stray thought which isn't in the service of God?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
His name was Lucifer. Because Lucifer was angry with God he hated the man and his wife who were pleasing to God.
There is nothing about Lucifer in the story of Genesis.
"Lucifer" clearly refers to the King of Babylon.
Lucifer as a proper name for the devil is an artifact of translating the Vulgate Latin to English. You will not find the proper name "Lucifer" in most modern translations of the Bible.
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
One day Lucifer (disguised as a serpent) went into the Garden and tempted Eve to disobey God.
If the devil was such a threat, why did God not once warn Adam and Eve or any of their children about him? Why did he not warn Noah? Why did God not mention the devil to Moses? Why is avoiding mildew in clothing more important to God than warning the Israelites about the devil?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Read that again. Does this seem reasonable to you? Does it ring true? Do you believe it?
No, it still seems the same story full of holes.
On these matters concerning the enemy of your soul you are decieved Ludi. Although it is true that the devil cannot touch any human life save God allow it. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
The triune God is a pagan concept and was incorporated into the bible as a conversion tool. It's apparent senselessness is an obstacle for anyone contemplating Christianity. Though I'm sure a triune God is "scriptural", it is another red flag that points to the cobbled together and politically compromised nature of the Bible.
Quote--
"The actual origin of the Trinity Doctrine predates Christianity. The ancient Babylonians and other Pagan nations all worshiped the Trinity. . The true roots of the Trinity are very occult and pagan. 1"The Babylonians used the equilateral triangle to symbolize the Trinity just like the (Orthodox and Catholic Churches) do today. Many ancient pagan nations had three headed gods and a Trinity doctrine. All these have existed from ancient times. Whole overlaid with idolatry, the recognition (and worship) of a Trinity was universal."
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12631 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
On these matters concerning the enemy of your soul you are decieved Ludi. Although it is true that the devil cannot touch any human life save God allow it.
Where is my error?
"Lucifer" is not the proper name of the adversary, it is a reference to the King of Babylon.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
"Lucifer" clearly refers to the King of Babylon.
Actually that is less than clear.
Isaiah 14
12. How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13. You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Sat May 17, 2008 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
threadbear wrote:
I find all of the emphasis on being child like and submissive before an authoritarian kind of God, interesting. I prefer the idea that the Creator, wove himself into his own creation, and we are tiny threads within this great tapestry. I think it/God, gave the threads in this matrix, free will (within the constraints of physical law), in order that it/God could experience the furthest limits of it's own potential, while being surprised and entertained by it.
The New Age movement does seem to turn the search for beauty meaning and God into a self involved vision quest, which shrinks limitless potential to the size of a dot. To use the matrix or fabric of creation as a metaphor--those whose ego subsumes all else, become frayed ends, that eventually break away completely, and ironically, in pursuit of "connection".
Some of what you have said there is not far from Biblical teaching about Christian mysticism.
'For by Him all things wee created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all thing hold together.' Colossians 1:16,17
I once had a similar vision to the last part of your post. The outer darkness is pitch black and when we do not hold strong to the head our lives drift out of control, the end of which is ruin.
'See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, accoding to the elementary principles of the world; rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fulness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.'
Colossians 2:8,9
'Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.'
Colossians 2:18,19
I wish you would share with us Threadbear, about your time in the church. What kind of church did you attend and why did you leave? PM me if you like. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12631 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Isaiah 14:12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12631 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
Ludi wrote:
"Lucifer" clearly refers to the King of Babylon.
Actually that is less than clear.
Isaiah 14
1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Aliens will join them
and unite with the house of Jacob.
2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And the house of Israel will possess the nations
as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.
3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!
5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
"Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down."
9 The grave [b] below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"
18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
The offspring of the wicked
will never be mentioned again.
21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
22 "I will rise up against them,"
declares the LORD Almighty.
"I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,"
declares the LORD.
23 "I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,"
declares the LORD Almighty. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4319 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
Ludi wrote:
"Lucifer" clearly refers to the King of Babylon.
Actually that is less than clear.
Isaiah 14
1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Aliens will join them
and unite with the house of Jacob.
2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And the house of Israel will possess the nations
as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.
3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!
Maybe President Bush read that and thought it was referring to Saddam Hussein. _________________
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi> Yes, and it can be interpreted as Isaiah comparing Babylon with Satan. Which is quite common in the bible.
The Jewish Encyclopedia states that the Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan already in the pre-Christian century, citing in support of this view the Life of Adam and Eve and the Slavonic Book of Enoch 29:4, 31:4, where Satan-Sataniel (Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4319 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
Ludi> Yes, and it can be interpreted as Isaiah comparing Babylon with Satan. Which is quite common in the bible.
Btu
I don't recall Satan being mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament.
The serpent in Genesis was just a serpent. It didn't say it was Satan or even a symbol of anything. It just said it was a serpent. We interpreted it to mean that it was a snake possessed by Satan, but that's not what it said. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12631 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
Ludi> Yes, and it can be interpreted as Isaiah comparing Babylon with Satan. Which is quite common in the bible.
Btu
Yes, people do interpret it that way, but there is nothing in Isaiah 14 about hasatan. The (spiritual) adversary is not mentioned. Many earthly adversaries are mentioned in the prophesies, but not the "devil." _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
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. It is important to note that holiness and sanctification are very closely related. Sanctification focuses more on the fact of God's ownership and His special purpose for each of us, holiness focuses on the presence of godly character brought about by God's ownership and renovation of our souls.
