The government raids on polygamists in the southwest us are:
Appropriate-those kids were abused
45%
[ 30 ]
Religious Bigotry
18%
[ 12 ]
A Little from column a, a little from column b
36%
[ 24 ]
Total Votes : 66
Author
Message
FreakOil Intermediate Crude
Joined: Mar 04, 2007 Posts: 504 Location: Hong Kong
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Wisconsin_Cur, your argument that polygamy is wrong seems based on that fact that the girls were underage and the marriages were arranged. But what about polygamy in the abstract? What if a woman decided, of her own volition, to marry a man who already had a wife? What if all parties agreed? Do you still think it's wrong? What about a woman who has more than one husband? What about polyamory? I don't think the government should have anything to do with marriage.
Quote:
It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.
How is this possible? Do they kill young boys when they're born? _________________ "We shall live in interesting times, and we shall die in them too." - Heineken
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
We all know what is going on out there
Do we? I'm not sure we know, or really want to. Seems like we mostly are just looking for someone new to tell ghost stories about. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4483 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
eastbay wrote:
Any idea what an operation like this costs including the hearings, foster care, adult custody, OT, busses, medical issues, fuel, etc...
It's millions of tax dollars squandered away so a few can get some media attention. From the actual evidence presented at this point it seems no crimes occurred.
What's with Texans and their religious intolerance anyhow?
What are children worth? Or is it only the rights of men to be free from oppression that is worth the expense of money?
When I see some evidence I'll agree to spend whatever is appropriate. Until then I'm a bit jaded by what happened in Waco awhile ago. Until then this 'fishing' trip smells 'fishy' to me. _________________ Got Dharma?
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
FreakOil wrote:
Wisconsin_Cur, your argument that polygamy is wrong seems based on that fact that the girls were underage and the marriages were arranged. But what about polygamy in the abstract? What if a woman decided, of her own volition, to marry a man who already had a wife? What if all parties agreed? Do you still think it's wrong? What about a woman who has more than one husband? What about polyamory? I don't think the government should have anything to do with marriage.
Quote:
It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.
How is this possible? Do they kill young boys when they're born?
2. Philosophically I can accept if women enter a relationship like that of their own free volition and can get out when/if they like. But being raised to be sexual property from birth is not ok... I don't know how you account for an "adult able to consent" who has been trained to be sexual property. But then again I can accept a lot of things philosophically. this does not mean that it is right or useful, only that I'm enough of a libertarian to let people do their own thing.
3. Pragmatically, polygamus and polyandrious relationships have their own problems. It has taken 11 years of patience on the part of my wife to train me how to live with one woman. Add jealousy to the mix and I don't know how they handle it.
Oh, thats right, women are also trained to submit to their husbands in all things, even being assigned to another "husband."
I love it how people who would be revolted at someone suggested that they should "just submit to a man" defend this group. The women/teenagers have never had the opportunity to choose whether or not to submit.
I wonder what happened to the trouble-making girl that made the complaint? Maybe assigned to a husband that can "keep her in line" in another compound or safe house somewhere? _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
smallpoxgirl wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
We all know what is going on out there
Do we? I'm not sure we know, or really want to. Seems like we mostly are just looking for someone new to tell ghost stories about.
In that great wide expanse of rumor and half truths called the internet, find someplace that denies the claims I posted above. They are proud of it. It is who they are. It is like saying the Amish really do love Ipods and that their refusal to conform is a rumor or ghost story.
Don't trust the government and law enforcement? Fine, I don't either. That does not mean that these men are not perpetrators of the worse kind.
Quote:
Utah state Senator Ron Allen said:
'We have thousands of women pulled out of school at an early age, forced into marriages with older men, kept isolated from society, constantly impregnated, and often placed on public assistance with no financial means of their own. They are forgotten citizens facing abuse and fear. On top of it all, the victims are constantly taught that God is just pleased as punch about the whole deal. It has to stop'." 1
bullet "Salt Lake City writer John Llewellyn, a former member of a fundamentalist LDS Restoration denomination, says:
'The key factor in controlling a polygamist cult is in brainwashing the young women to inculcate upon their impressionable minds that everything not condoned by the prophet is evil, that they cannot go to the celestial kingdom unless they live in a plural marriage, and that the gates of heaven will be closed to the disobedient'." 1
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 Posts: 277 Location: Second Vermont Republic
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Surprised there haven't been any Mormons chime in with the, "These aren't Mormons, they don't have anything to do with us," argument. Which overlooks, of course, that the original Mormon leader, Joseph Smith, had many wives, including some as young as 14, and that the church only gave up polygamy under duress from the Federal government.
These guys are the ones who thought that God's laws trumped man made laws and the church in Salt Lake was going into apostasy by giving up polygamy.
(And yes, I do know what I'm talking about. Some of my ancestors were Mormons polygamists.)
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
?? I may be dense but I would need some context to understand the comment. Has anyone suggested that the state is able or should institute morality?
Isn't that exactly what this whole thread is about? State-mandated morality? _________________ The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
In that great wide expanse of rumor and half truths called the internet, find someplace that denies the claims I posted above.
You make very good arguments about why they are immoral. I agree that they are immoral. I don't think the swat team is generally the best way to address immoral behavior.
Quote:
'We have thousands of women pulled out of school at an early age, forced into marriages with older men, kept isolated from society, constantly impregnated, and often placed on public assistance with no financial means of their own. They are forgotten citizens facing abuse and fear. On top of it all, the victims are constantly taught that God is just pleased as punch about the whole deal.
That more or less describes the Pentacostal Church where I was raised. Is it right? Of course not, but there's a wide gulf between what is right, and what warrants sending swat teams into churches and arresting hundreds of people. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Or protecting those unable to protect themselves?
Or do you only want someone to step in to intervene when it is your rights being violated?
Maybe you think men 40 year old men should be able to keep 15 year old girls locked up as sexual property in the house and traded like so many baseball cards?
I give up, if I have not made the point than there is little more that I can say. Maybe they should be allowed to set up there own little warlord retreat and treat women like cattle?
Be happy in your ignorance people and remember, if they are living in a compound than the are automatically free from question no matter what they do. If anyone intervenes, than they are just being intolerant.
I can't believe people hate the government so much that they would just throw these little girls to the wolves.
goodbye _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Maybe you think men 40 year old men should be able to keep 15 year old girls locked up as sexual property in the house and traded like so many baseball cards?
Maybe you should stop parroting media rumors.
Quote:
Be happy in your ignorance people and remember, if they are living in a compound than the are automatically free from question no matter what they do.
Actually I think the rule is that as soon as you call someone's house or church a "compound", they loose all constitutional rights. You can make up any ridiculous lie about them that you want. You can shoot them. You can incinerate them. Then you can stick out your chest and tell the congressional inquiry that you were just trying to protect them. It's far better for kids to be burned alive by the FBI, don't you know, than to be raised by an unusual religious group. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
?? I may be dense but I would need some context to understand the comment. Has anyone suggested that the state is able or should institute morality?
Isn't that exactly what this whole thread is about? State-mandated morality?
That's exactly what it's about, and it's a bunch of horsesh*t. All this crap about what they're doing being 'immoral' is nothing but cultural bias, plain and simple. There have been entire cultures where it would be unthinkable for children not to be sexually 'educated' by an adult, and our aversion to the idea would be viewed as criminal neglect.
The only relevant issue in these situations is whether or not those involved are loved, supported and cared for within the context of their beliefs, regardless of what our personal opinions might be about those beliefs.
Personally I find one woman enough of a handful, but hey, if some guys are masochists then that's their problem... _________________ "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
In that great wide expanse of rumor and half truths called the internet, find someplace that denies the claims I posted above.
You make very good arguments about why they are immoral. I agree that they are immoral. I don't think the swat team is generally the best way to address immoral behavior.
Quote:
'We have thousands of women pulled out of school at an early age, forced into marriages with older men, kept isolated from society, constantly impregnated, and often placed on public assistance with no financial means of their own. They are forgotten citizens facing abuse and fear. On top of it all, the victims are constantly taught that God is just pleased as punch about the whole deal.
That more or less describes the Pentacostal Church where I was raised. Is it right? Of course not, but there's a wide gulf between what is right, and what warrants sending swat teams into churches and arresting hundreds of people.
There is a world of difference between being indoctrinated in your own home, and being raised in a communal compound and being pressured into an arranged marriage when you're under age.
We have a bunch of these nuts in B.C. and the govt is finally overriding the vague laws that protect freedom of religion, and going after them on specifics like rape. Should have happened years ago.
?? I may be dense but I would need some context to understand the comment. Has anyone suggested that the state is able or should institute morality?
Isn't that exactly what this whole thread is about? State-mandated morality?
That's exactly what it's about, and it's a bunch of horsesh*t. All this crap about what they're doing being 'immoral' is nothing but cultural bias, plain and simple. There have been entire cultures where it would be unthinkable for children not to be sexually 'educated' by an adult, and our aversion to the idea would be viewed as criminal neglect.
The only relevant issue in these situations is whether or not those involved are loved, supported and cared for within the context of their beliefs, regardless of what our personal opinions might be about those beliefs.
Personally I find one woman enough of a handful, but hey, if some guys are masochists then that's their problem...
Being sexually educated by an adult isn't what's going on here, though. You've mentioned context and culture is everything. And that is absolutely correct. But this isn't Polynesia, and you can bet, that what is occuring isn't consensual, in the true sense and is anything but loving. It's woman as chattel.
Maybe you think men 40 year old men should be able to keep 15 year old girls locked up as sexual property in the house and traded like so many baseball cards?
Maybe you should stop parroting media rumors.
Quote:
Be happy in your ignorance people and remember, if they are living in a compound than the are automatically free from question no matter what they do.
Actually I think the rule is that as soon as you call someone's house or church a "compound", they loose all constitutional rights. You can make up any ridiculous lie about them that you want. You can shoot them. You can incinerate them. Then you can stick out your chest and tell the congressional inquiry that you were just trying to protect them. It's far better for kids to be burned alive by the FBI, don't you know, than to be raised by an unusual religious group.
Instead of "media rumors" you would rather trust your own paranoia. I mentioned it before but perhaps you would trust a woman who was there?
Sorry, I spend 40 hours a week with kids and adults who suffered sexual abuse as adolescents. I see what it does to people's heads and the rest of their lives.
I can only imagine what happens when "God says it is ok."
But lets leave them in there because we don't trust the federal government.
Call it a ranch, call it a compound, call it a prison camp or call it f-ing DisneyLand. These are real people and the total disregard for them shown in this conversation makes me sick. _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
Of course this should just be ignored and we should let the people be. Maybe we should just lecture the girl and tell her to go back to do her "husband's" bidding? _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
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