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| The government raids on polygamists in the southwest us are: |
| Appropriate-those kids were abused |
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45% |
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| Religious Bigotry |
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18% |
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| A Little from column a, a little from column b |
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36% |
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| Total Votes : 66 |
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Cloud9
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1041
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| I like the new dog Cur. Reminds me of my friend Jack. |
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wisconsin_cur
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Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 2973
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| Cloud9 wrote: | | I like the new dog Cur. Reminds me of my friend Jack. |
Thanks, Trying to turn over a new "staying on topic" leaf. Thought I would get a new icon to remind me of that.
_________________
Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze |
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Plantagenet
Expert
Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5900
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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There are ZERO accusations that the FLDS mothers have raped or impregnanted their under-age children.
Nonetheless, the Texas authorities have apparently decided that no mother who is a member of the FLDS church should be allowed to keep her own children. Thats a collective punishment.
These actions are clearly unconstitutional.... the US supreme court has repeatedly ruled that people's religious beliefs, political beliefs, membership in an Indian tribe, or other similarly bizarre reasons the state comes up with are not sufficient cause to take away people's children. |
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wisconsin_cur
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Joined: May 10, 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | There are ZERO accusations that the FLDS mothers have raped or impregnanted their under-age children.
Nonetheless, the Texas authorities have apparently decided that no mother who is a member of the FLDS church should be allowed to keep her own children. Thats a collective punishment.
These actions are clearly unconstitutional.... the US supreme court has repeatedly ruled that people's religious beliefs, political beliefs, membership in an Indian tribe, or other similarly bizarre reasons the state comes up with are not sufficient cause to take away people's children. |
As I have often said, this is what is done hundreds of times across the country every day in trailer parks, suburbs and urban apartments across the nation. Authorities actually did a very odd thing by allowing mothers to stay with the children as long as they did. It has nothing to do with the FLDS.
Mothers often play a part in the abuse, as enablers of the abuse and/or as convincing the child that either it was not abuse or that the child she shut up about the abuse. Telling kids that it is God's will to be "spiritually married at age 13 to a 50 year old man would qualify.
When there is a question of abuse in a household, all of the children are removed, not only the one who is claiming or has evidence of abuse. If you live on a communal ranch, that means all the children are removed. The idea is if one is in danger there is a risk to any child in the household.
The FLDS is not special. They are being treated just like everyone else.
_________________
Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze |
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Ludi
NeoMaster
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 12546
Location: zombie horde wonderland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| wisconsin_cur wrote: |
The FLDS is not special. They are being treated just like everyone else. |
The scale of the event is the only unusual feature.
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wisconsin_cur
Moderator
Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 2973
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| Ludi wrote: | | wisconsin_cur wrote: |
The FLDS is not special. They are being treated just like everyone else. |
The scale of the event is the only unusual feature. |
Agreed
_________________
Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze |
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Cloud9
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1041
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| That is what makes it unconstitutional on its face. Some mothers were single parents; some were divorced. |
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wisconsin_cur
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Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 2973
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| Cloud9 wrote: | | That is what makes it unconstitutional on its face. Some mothers were single parents; some were divorced. |
Doesn't matter if they are married to the individual in the household who is accused of abuse or not. It can be a live in boyfriend or it can be grandpa. The children are then removed from the home.
Explain how scale makes a difference. If it is sauce for a goose seems like it can be sauce for geese.
_________________
Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze |
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Cloud9
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1041
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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The problem lies with the idea that everyone associated with this church is a criminal. The notion that mere membership is probable cause to separate parents from their children is unconstitutional on its face.
The legal concept is called the Robinson Doctrine. The SCOTUS has ruled that it is a violation of the eight and fourteenth amendments to criminalize a class. To assert that the teachings of a church that polygamy is sanctioned by God and that young girls should marry the husbands chosen by their parents is child abuse, opens a huge can of worms.
We are sliding down a slippery slope here. Remember that abuse can be either emotional or physical.
I personally believe that teaching children that God wants them to walk into a crowd of non believers and blow them selves up is the most extreme form of child abuse. It turns the womb into a weapons factory.
More than six million Muslims in this country pay lip service to Jihad. Do we criminalize the entire population of believers? Do we raid every Muslim home?
Many Christians would be tempted to say yes. These people are not like us. They pose a real threat to society. Many would feel it to be their duty to join this last Crusade. Few in the Christian faith would realize that the arguments so successfully levied against these polygamists and Muslims would lay the foundation for the criminalization of their own faiths.
There are those in the secular state that would argue that the mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches practice and extreme form of child abuse. The teaching of young children that they are immortal and will burn forever in the fires of hell if they do not submit to the will of the church opens these children to manipulation and sexual abuse.
History is replete with examples of child abuse perpetrated by church officials Protestant as well as Catholic.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/9904/Robinson-v-California.html |
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AWPrime
Intermediate Crude
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Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Posts: 678
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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One huge problem with that is it isn't a class, it is a minor group that lives together.
That's a lot smaller and more closely associated.
ps. You do understand the concept of consent do you?
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Fighting technobabble and Woo Woos.
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wisconsin_cur
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Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 2973
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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If that were true then they would have raided the other four ranches of the FLDS. Even the one in Colorado City where the police are members of the... religion.
Of course there are many other... dealings of the FLDS that have gained the eye of authorities. Most notable is the shady finances of the Colorado City School district (where FLDS members are on the board).
PDF document
Secondary source of news
| Quote: | | The Arizona Board of Education took over the Colorado City school system and Utah officials cut off a major source of assets from the sect's United Effort Plan trust, which was estimated to contain as much as $114 million. |
but authorities limited themselves to that one residence, the residence where they had enough information for a judge to send in social services, where social services saw pregnate 15 year old girls and were told that girls were (sometimes) "spiritually married" at ~14 to men 3-4 times their own age. That was enough to bring in the fuzz to remove the children from that one residence.
Also from that news story linked above,
| Quote: | Prosecutors in Arizona and Utah struggled for years to gain the trust of witnesses in abuse cases, but many young girls still refused to speak out.
"We've had them come out and make statements, and then they disappear, or they recant," Shurtleff said. |
Do we care about disappearing witnesses here in the USA? I would hope that we would. If a blonde haired blue eyed suburban housewife disappeared we would care wouldn't we? I would contend that the fact they are different from us is why we have been so disinterested in the fate of these young women up to this point. There are other cases of official disinterest in crimes in people different from the mainstream.
This isn't even the worst. They are not being picked on because they are different. they have been allowed to continue in their crimes unabated because they are insular and different.
| Quote: | "This was Warren Jeff's all-star cast," said Goddard, who has been investigating the sect since 2004. "They had the strongest sense of obedience."
As a result, their extreme devotion could make it hard on Texas authorities as they push for prosecutions, said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.
"All these girls are taught from the cradle not to trust anybody from the outside," Shurtleff said. "Especially the government. We're the beast. We're the devil." |
_________________
Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze |
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Cloud9
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1041
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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As a strict constructionalist, I see this as a domino in a line of dominos that make up our civil liberties. Historically speaking, this raid is but one raid in a long history of raids against the Mormon Church.
Their hokum religion, their closed society, their peculiar views make them targets. It is their isolation from the main stream that lets the rest of us walk away from them. If we saw them as people like us, we would be there in a heart beat to defend them. As it is, their children are not like our children. Their children are victims and they are not like us. They are victimizers.
Every generation of law enforcement rediscovers the Mormons and the process is repeated. It is repeated for a multitude of reasons. Someone wants a larger budget for their department. Local prosecutors are up for election. Politically connected true believers see their practices as an abomination. Law enforcement gets an opportunity to suit up, fire up its tanks and demonstrate the awesomeness of their power.
I have hunted men for a living. Trust me; it takes on the air of a fox hunt. |
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Jack
Dark Lord
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 5087
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Plantagenet
Expert
Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5900
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| wisconsin_cur wrote: | If that were true then they would have raided the other four ranches of the FLDS.
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The FLDS children were taken by Texas authorities. It is unconstitutional for the Texas authorities to engage in this kind of collective punishment of a religious group solely because of their religion.
Your suggestion that the Texas authorities should also engage in additional unconstitutional seizures of children in areas across state lines is precisely why this kind of thing is unconstitutional. Most Americans don't want the state to have the power to decide that every person who is a member of a certain religion isn't fit to raise their own children because of their religous beliefs. |
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wisconsin_cur
Moderator
Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 2973
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | | wisconsin_cur wrote: | If that were true then they would have raided the other four ranches of the FLDS.
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The FLDS children were taken by Texas authorities. It is unconstitutional for the Texas authorities to engage in this kind of collective punishment of a religious group solely because of their religion.
Your suggestion that the Texas authorities should also engage in additional unconstitutional seizures of children in areas across state lines is precisely why this kind of thing is unconstitutional. Most Americans don't want the state to have the power to decide that every person who is a member of a certain religion isn't fit to raise their own children because of their religous beliefs. |
I made no suggestion. I was responding to the idea that the FLDS is somehow a special victum of collective punishment because they are FLDS. If it were collective punishment then we would go after the others. All of the children were removed just like we would remove 14 kids in some multifamily use of a home, just because one uncle started banging on of the 13 year old nieces.
This is just because they are different? and what about the plain Quakers or the Amish? What about the hippies living on the street in San Fran? What about the home schooling movement? What about the Hutterites? there are plenty of different groups out there that are free to live their lives as they wish.
They just don't go around "spiritually marrying" 13 year old girls off to late middle aged men and if they start then yes, their children should be removed from the home also.
I've said it before and I'll say it again until I am heard or someone actually does some research to prove me wrong. This is the exact same g-d darn thing that happens everyday. The only difference is scale.
_________________
Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze |
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