The government raids on polygamists in the southwest us are:
Appropriate-those kids were abused
45%
[ 30 ]
Religious Bigotry
18%
[ 12 ]
A Little from column a, a little from column b
36%
[ 24 ]
Total Votes : 66
Author
Message
wisconsin_cur Moderator
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2966
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
ColossalContrarian wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
ColossalContrarian wrote:
Sexual contact with children is wrong but this makes me wonder why the Catholic Church is never raided.
Give the authorities the address of the Catholic compound where children are raised so that they may be sold into sexual and manual labor or men 3-4 times their age and perhaps we will see a raid?
hmmm... tough to do, they keep moving the suspects around.
There is a difference between individual perps, which should be locked up also, and institutions that identify themselves by promoting the perpetration. The catholic church, wrongly, protected perps and made their further crimes possible. Lots of parents protect their children from the consequences of their misbehaviors. The mothers and the church were wrong but that does not make them the Italian Mafia or the fundamentalist church of latter day saints.
someone who aids and abets out of a sense of loyalty, love or even self-interest, is not the same thing as an organization which builds the structures to systematically exploit/imprison a portion of a the population. Both are wrong but they are not the same thing. _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
ColossalContrarian wrote:
Now lets see how the State can institute “good” morals and values in these children, it has such a high success rate [/sarcasm]
?? I may be dense but I would need some context to understand the comment. Has anyone suggested that the state is able or should institute morality? _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
steam_cannon wrote:
Dreamtwister wrote:
The first thing I thought when I heard about this story was "I wonder
what they really did?"
Looks like the cops were expecting to find a 200 person orgy, but all they found was:
* a bunch of people chilling rent free
* what sounds like a low rate of child neglect
* a few screwed up people in the bunch
* one person breaking underage marriage laws
Some of these things aren't great, but this is certainly not the 200 person orgy as advertised.
The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.[27] Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.
The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet.[28] The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness. Wives may be taken from one man and reassigned to men that are more worthy.
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
ColossalContrarian wrote:
Now lets see how the State can institute “good” morals and values in these children, it has such a high success rate [/sarcasm]
?? I may be dense but I would need some context to understand the comment. Has anyone suggested that the state is able or should institute morality?
No, I shouldn't jump to conclusions... I'm mean the state has taken these children away from their parents. So now will the children go to foster parents?
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
ColossalContrarian wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
ColossalContrarian wrote:
Now lets see how the State can institute “good” morals and values in these children, it has such a high success rate [/sarcasm]
?? I may be dense but I would need some context to understand the comment. Has anyone suggested that the state is able or should institute morality?
No, I shouldn't jump to conclusions... I'm mean the state has taken these children away from their parents. So now will the children go to foster parents?
I don't think we know yet. At some level I am guessing that the children (and the adult women who left with them) will have something to say about it. They could very quickly recongregate and resume their lives as before.
To take the Catholic example: The nun who was abused becomes the one who aids and abets abuse. It takes a lot of work over time to free people when their identity has been built around something, even when it is so twisted. _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4412 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Any idea what an operation like this costs including the hearings, foster care, adult custody, OT, busses, medical issues, fuel, etc...
It's millions of tax dollars squandered away so a few can get some media attention. From the actual evidence presented at this point it seems no crimes occurred.
What's with Texans and their religious intolerance anyhow? _________________ Got Dharma?
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
catbox wrote:
ColossalContrarian wrote:
Sexual contact with children is wrong but this makes me wonder why the Catholic Church is never raided.
Ditto.
got a letter from the Catholic Church asking if I will participate in a fifteen minute survey to help determine the future of the church; said sure; my devout R.C. wife kinda did a double take....she asked why do you care....said well, don't you think it's time they allow the priests to marry and stop doing little boys? (she though that was funny)
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Quote:
Plural marriage and the law of placing
The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.[27] Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.
The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet.[28] The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness. Wives may be taken from one man and reassigned to men that are more worthy.
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
1) polygamy is against the law
Actually you're wrong.
You are only allowed to legally marry one person. What they did was to legally marry their first wife. Their subsequent marriages were religious, but not legal. Having children with people to whom you are not legally married is certainly not illegal.
As far as I'm aware none of these people have been charged with trying to legally marry more than one person. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
eastbay wrote:
Any idea what an operation like this costs including the hearings, foster care, adult custody, OT, busses, medical issues, fuel, etc...
It's millions of tax dollars squandered away so a few can get some media attention. From the actual evidence presented at this point it seems no crimes occurred.
What's with Texans and their religious intolerance anyhow?
What are children worth? Or is it only the rights of men to be free from oppression that is worth the expense of money? _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
smallpoxgirl wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
1) polygamy is against the law
Actually you're wrong.
You are only allowed to legally marry one person. What they did was to legally marry their first wife. Their subsequent marriages were religious, but not legal. Having children with people to whom you are not legally married is certainly not illegal.
As far as I'm aware none of these people have been charged with trying to legally marry more than one person.
Fine, I admit the technicality. What about the substance? What rights do women have when they are born into that situation? Should we just leave them to their 40-yr old "spiritual" husbands? _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
No orgies, it is all very "orderly,"
Quote:
Plural marriage and the law of placing
The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.[27] Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.
The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet.[28] The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness. Wives may be taken from one man and reassigned to men that are more worthy.
Poor persecuted men. They are just chasing "salvation."
The more I think about this the more I realize what we are talking about is sexual slavery. One all knowing male gets to assign women to different men based upon the "worthiness" of the male. Matches, once made, can be re-assigned at the whim of the one all-knowing leader.
I have a hard time believing that anyone would really support this and call its disruption (however imperfect and whatever the timing) religious persecution. _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
What about the substance? What rights do women have when they are born into that situation? Should we just leave them to their 40-yr old "spiritual" husbands?
I don't see how you go from one 16 year old girl with specific accusations about one man, to police searching churches and arresting 600 people.
Do I think what this church is doing is good? Hell no. It is one of those insane procreation cults. The LAST thing the world needs is people having 15 kids.
I think it's really important to distinguish what you like from what is in fact illegal. If the guys are in fact guilty of statutory rape, then fine. Charge them with that. In this whole discussion I've not even heard anyone yet mention what the actual definition of statutory rape is in Texas.
What they are doing is making a lot of reckless accusations that ultimately boil down to these people being WEIRD. In the end they will end up breaking up a bunch of families, trampling the rights of hundreds of people, and maybe come up with a substantiable charge of child abuse against the one guy. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
We all know what is going on out there but have decided to do nothing about it because it is out of sight and out of mind.
It is the same thing which makes us not care where our heat and electric come from, as long as it comes.
We should care about the damage we do to the environment in our pursuit of our big SUV's.
We should care about what happens to little girls in the middle of nowhere. _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
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