For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
Kaj wrote:
Now, I don't know if that echoes your version of realism, I don't want to falsely attribute it to you, perhaps you could elaborate?
I was talking about realism in a wider sense, as the focus on the analysis of power dynamics (as Cid mentioned). In my opinion the narrower understanding of this term in international relations has cheapened it considerably.
Basically I think that one needs to have an non-ideological take on social and political issues as far as possible. In this case one needs to look in detail at the history of Iraq, the situation there, the players, their motivations, the conflicts of Iraqi society, of the region etc and try to avoid making assumptions based on some abstract belief or worldview.
I don't mean this as an excuse for the actions of the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the UK etc. In this war the US was clearly the aggressor and is the occupying power, therefore it bears responsibility for the outcome, which was indeed quite predictable.
It is my opinion that ideology was a large source of conflicts in the 20th century and that it by and large turned out to be counterproductive. This is why I tend to be extremely skeptical of utopias and isms. I also think that ideologies are
a distraction in that they allow us to avoid looking at the real problems, which have to do with the profoundly unethical way in which we came to relate to each other and with nature.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
btu2012 wrote:
Sadr is an excellent example of this projection of fictitious motives onto someone who definitely doesn't fit left wing beliefs.
Under normal conditions, a person like him would be viewed with sheer horror by left wingers and libertarians alike.
And that makes Al-Sadr the man even more interesting. He has History thrown upon him big way and in the general comparison has not done so badly; what kind of soul does the man have?
Politically he is on the side of the poor and weak, not the powerfull; his devout religious beliefs are hard to question (but not to be taken at face value either); in all his actions he has respected the will of his superiors in the shia religious hierarchy.
As for the westerners, left and right alike, they have a strong tendency to condemn all others by their own ethnic moral and social codes they have been accustomed to believe as universal laws. And much worse, not only condemn (cf. to throw the proverbial first stone) but to violently force their relativist view of ethics as universal truth on all and everybody they can. "White mans burden" as it has been sometimes called, or "manifest destiny"...
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
Taghayee wrote:
Contrary to the anti-Sadr disinformation campaign , Muqtada seems to be the only Iraqi voice in the equation. He is called firebrand or radical etc while in reality he is quite prudent and clearheaded.
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 498 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
Al Jazeera is one of the best sources from Middle East. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Joined: Feb 29, 2008 Posts: 55 Location: Borgloon, Belgium
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
I like your posts cid, i read them all, nobody who likes monty python can be a bad person. )
Although people call me an anarchist i don't share you're beliefs, more of a despot myself. Great vids from Taghayee...never mind the trolls
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1194 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
And that makes Al-Sadr the man even more interesting. He has History thrown upon him big way and in the general comparison has not done so badly; what kind of soul does the man have?
Muqtada's political intelligence is undoubted, but the personality of this highly secretive man is difficult to pin down. While his father and elder brothers lived he was in their shadow; after they were assassinated in 1999 he had every reason to stress his lack of ability or ambition in order to give the mukhabarat [Saddam Hussein's secret police] less reason to kill him. As the son and son-in-law of two of Saddam Hussein's most dangerous opponents, he was a prime suspect and his every move was watched.
When Saddam fell, Muqtada stepped forward to claim his forbears' political inheritance and consciously associated himself with them on every possible occasion. Posters showed Muqtada alongside Sadr I and Sadr II [Muqtada's father-in-law and father, both assassinated by Saddam] against a background of the Iraqi flag. There was more here than a leader exploiting his connection to a revered or respected parent. Muqtada persistently emphasized the Sadrist ideological legacy: puritanical Shia Islam mixed with anti-imperialism and populism.
Of course, Muqtada was the complete opposite to the type of Iraqi leader who proponents of the war in Washington had suggested would take over from Saddam Hussein. Instead of the smooth, dark-suited, English-speaking exiles who the White House had hoped would turn Iraq into a compliant US ally, Muqtada looked too much like a younger version of Ayatollah Khomeini.
Muqtada epitomized the central dilemma of the United States in Iraq, which it has never resolved. The problem was that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and his Sunni regime was bound to be followed by elections that would produce a government dominated by the Shia allied to the Kurds. It soon became evident that the Shia parties that were going to triumph in any election would be Islamic parties, and some would have close links to Iran.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
mos6507 wrote:
Taghayee wrote:
Contrary to the anti-Sadr disinformation campaign , Muqtada seems to be the only Iraqi voice in the equation. He is called firebrand or radical etc while in reality he is quite prudent and clearheaded.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
MrBean wrote:
As for the westerners, left and right alike, they have a strong tendency to condemn all others by their own ethnic moral and social codes they have been accustomed to believe as universal laws. And much worse, not only condemn (cf. to throw the proverbial first stone) but to violently force their relativist view of ethics as universal truth on all and everybody they can. "White mans burden" as it has been sometimes called, or "manifest destiny"...
They also have a tendency to be unthinkingly ideological mostly because they understand not the world they live in Post-modernism is as misleading a woldview as social biology -- they both deny the dignity of human beings by placing their essence outside of their person (into "socio-cultural constructions" and genes respectively). It is quite interesting how little respect post-modernists have for the people whom they are supposedly defending -- starting with being blind to what those people are actually about.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
btu2012 wrote:
They also have a tendency to be unthinkingly ideological mostly because they understand not the world they live in Post-modernism is as misleading a woldview as social biology -- they both deny the dignity of human beings by placing their essence outside of their person (into "socio-cultural constructions" and genes respectively). It is quite interesting how little respect post-modernists have for the people whom they are supposedly defending -- starting with being blind to what those people are actually about.
Btu
One of the most simple "post-modern" observations that can hardly be denied by logic or empirical study, is that "persons" (a grammatical category in itself) are used by languages more than vice versa, ie. profound criticism of the common view that language is just a tool that a person uses to further his personal goals.
Thus the view that "all individuals (ie persons) are equal (or should be)" is possible only through denial of equality between different languages and the huge variety of world views they carry - also in relation to the grammatical category of personhood.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Sadr demands US leave Iraq - million-man demonstration
MrBean wrote:
One of the most simple "post-modern" observations that can hardly be denied by logic or empirical study, is that "persons" (a grammatical category in itself) are used by languages more than vice versa, ie. profound criticism of the common view that language is just a tool that a person uses to further his personal goals.
Thus the view that "all individuals (ie persons) are equal (or should be)" is possible only through denial of equality between different languages and the huge variety of world views they carry - also in relation to the grammatical category of personhood.
In my opinion there is a difference between grammar and logic and we are likely to end up overdoing the importance of language if we don't get out much.
I don't really buy into Derrida or even Foucault or Lacan. They sounds unreal to anyone with an education in mathematics or natural science. It is quite possible to speak meaningfully about many things, without being 'used' by language.
It is also possible to reason correctly and to apply those conclusions in the real world, with a pretty good track record. You experience that every day when you use that technology which makes your comfortable modern life possible. Starting with the computer which you use to disseminate these post-structuralist exaggerations, which disregard the dignity and freedom of human beings.
Languages evolved to represent the world and by and large they point to the same reality. World views do not come from language itself, but are expressed through it. They come from attempts to understand the world, including our inner life, and are marked by many traditions, falsehoods, illusions and so forth. We are not alien to each other just because we have different mother tongues or because we were enculturated in different traditions. You overemphasize the signifier over the signified -- the latter being much more important for those preoccupied with reality and truth.
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