For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
Pierre Trudeau was a popular Canadian Prime Minister. Many people didn’t agree with his policies but I think he was the last Prime Minister with a vision for Canada - the just society. Ultimately he was a failure because he was unable to make the changes needed to create the country we wanted.
Preston Manning of the Reform Party promised not to lie to us and to bring back grass roots democracy. Although I disagreed with many of his policies I voted for him. He too was unable to change the system and did not last long as Prime Minister.
Canada is not a democracy and I no longer love this country. I debate with myself whether it’s worth voting in the next elections. Although Canada is still a good place to live it is down to number 8 on the UN list, which is a damming indictment of the rest of the countries of the world. Now, I probably won’t get a lot of flack for saying this. One does not have to love Canada to be a Canadian. For years the Loyal Opposition in the federal parliament was the Quebec Separatist Party.
Americans do have to be patriotic, don’t they take an oath? Any criticism of the US has to be preceded with a disclaimer on how they love the country or followed by a justification. We may be hypocrites; but so are other countries. Our wars may be violent; but we have to defend the worlds’ freedom or other empires were just as bad as us. Wall Street crime may be crashing the global financial system; well that was just a few bad apples and isn’t capitalism grand.
Americans don’t take the next step and say that the system is at fault and needs to be changed. Interpreting “the pursuit of happiness” as the right to get rich is not going to work. The Constitution has been deified and Americans told that if they are not rich and happy it’s their fault. No wonder there is so much mental illness. Canadians at least have this going for us, we didn’t get our own constitution until 1982. So we figure if we have a problem it’s probably Ottawas’ fault.
mos6507 wrote:
I'm waiting to see what happens with the election before I write off the US as a dictatorship.
I hope you won’t be disappointed as I was with the Reform Party and we all are with the present US congress. But if you do decide that the US is a dictatorship what will you do? When the US regime loses legitimacy with the people it will be the end of the Empire. Even totalitarian states depend on the consent of the people to be governed. When the Homelanders realize that their patriotism has been used to control and exploit them it will be interesting. As Roccman says: bring popcorn.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MalcolmV wrote:
Americans don’t take the next step and say that the system is at fault and needs to be changed.
The reason americans don't protest that much is because america is, comparatively speaking, a rich country. So we're fat and complacent. Perhaps we've lost some freedoms on paper, but if we don't personally feel it, it doesn't matter. Just like Peak Oil.
MalcolmV wrote:
I hope you won’t be disappointed as I was with the Reform Party and we all are with the present US congress.
I'm just happy I live in a country that has elections at all, rather than the usual "leader for life or until the next coup". What I like about the US is not that it always has perfect leaders. No country has a perfect track record of leaders. What I like is that it is a "self healing" system. That's what gives people hope for the future and prevents the violence that often accompanies succession of power in the world. Sure, voters will keep being stupid and vote in losers, but there is at least some turnover in positions of power. I'm all for term limits across the board if it ever came to a vote.
Conflict has to remain political rather than physical. As they say, "All war represents a failure of diplomacy."
MalcolmV wrote:
But if you do decide that the US is a dictatorship what will you do?
Not sure. I think I'm more concerned about what would happen if the US gets hit by nukes in a war than I am afraid of concentrion camps and other internal paranoia scenarios. It would be better to live in a quiet country that doesn't have a big bullseye on it. That's why I'd like to see what a new administration will mean in changing international relations.
MalcolmV wrote:
bring popcorn.
Being a parent, I do not look forward to anarchy.
It's kind of like how some people in Iraq pine for the days of Saddam. Nobody likes being in the middle of a war zone, and we all know revolutions, well intended or not, usually only serve to replace one bad form of government with another just as bad if not worse. So I'd rather it be a whimper than a bang.
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
mos6507 wrote:
The reason americans don't protest that much is because america is, comparatively speaking, a rich country. So we're fat and complacent. Perhaps we've lost some freedoms on paper, but if we don't personally feel it, it doesn't matter. Just like Peak Oil.
There was just a little piece of news that allready 26 million (about 10% of population) USans, more than ever, live on food coupons. Child malnutrition has been and is a big problem. Big chunk of population in prisons. Real economy going into depression those allready immense problems will manyfold. Debt based consumerism does not a rich country make, but lot of misery and anger when the potemkin economy of debt up to the ears unravels.
Quote:
I'm just happy I live in a country that has elections at all, rather than the usual "leader for life or until the next coup".
Elections with voting machines without paper trail and non-open and easily manipulated code by private companies that have close ties with the Republican party. Duh. But don't worry, also here in the land that gave the world Linux, TPTB are now planning just the same, voting machines without paper trail not based on open source code but private and secret. Duh.
Quote:
What I like about the US is not that it always has perfect leaders. No country has a perfect track record of leaders. What I like is that it is a "self healing" system. That's what gives people hope for the future and prevents the violence that often accompanies succession of power in the world. Sure, voters will keep being stupid and vote in losers, but there is at least some turnover in positions of power. I'm all for term limits across the board if it ever came to a vote.
I would like to see some of that "self healing". Isn't that long overdue, so what empirical evidence is there to back up that belief?
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
mos6507 wrote:
I'm just happy I live in a country that has elections at all
Most Americans probably agree with you, that the US is somewhat democratic and that the elections make a difference. I think it's more like choosing a box of cereal at the supermarket, it looks like there is a choice but they are all the same inside.
Quote:
there is at least some turnover in positions of power.
I disagree, the President is a figurehead, you don’t think that anyone would allow George Bush to make any actual decisions do you? The establishment that actually holds the power doesn't change. Government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. I don't blame Mr. Bush; he is a victim of the system as much as anyone.
Quote:
I think I'm more concerned about what would happen if the US gets hit by nukes in a war than I am afraid of concentrion camps and other internal paranoia scenarios. It would be better to live in a quiet country that doesn't have a big bullseye on it.
This is a bit of an aside, but who at this point would bother to bomb the US? I despair of ever understanding Americans. Are you truly afraid of being attacked with nuclear weapons? What ever happened to the home of the brave? At some point the richest and most powerful nation on earth is going to have to stop playing the victim. If there is a bullseye on the US it's one that you have painted yourself.
My theory on why there have been no more terrorist attacks on the US is that the “terrorists” realize that there is nothing they can do that would be worse than what the current regime is doing now.
I agree that concentration camps are a paranoid scenario. I think it will be more of the same; the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There will be more than 12 million children who sometimes go hungry; more than 7% of children won’t go to school; more than 50 million people won’t have health insurance. Until the 1% own everything, instead of the 50% which they do now. It will be like Katrina, the rich do fine the poor are left to fend for themselves. When the 99% realize that the problems are intrinsic to the system not just in implementation then there will be a change.
Quote:
Nobody likes being in the middle of a war zone
Too bad America didn’t think of this before they invaded Iraq and maybe you could think of this before you invade Iran.
Quote:
we all know revolutions, well intended or not, usually only serve to replace one bad form of government with another just as bad if not worse.
Did you really mean to imply that the USA is a worse country than the UK and that the American Empire is worse than the British Raj? That would be an accomplishment. Yes; the US was born in violence and continues to be a violent country.
Quote:
I do not look forward to anarchy
Canada was founded on the principles of “law, order and good government”. Although we are now America-lite there may be enough good manners left to save us from chaos. But I’ll have ringside seats for the American drama. If you look through the die-off threads you’ll see the level of compassion Americans have for the suffering of their fellow man: why should I care?, 5 billion need to die, feeding the hungry is a waste of resources. Will Americans have compassion for their fellow citizens? Why should foreigners have any compassion for Americans? America has a lot of bad karma to work out. It will be interesting.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MalcolmV wrote:
Americans do have to be patriotic, don’t they take an oath? Any criticism of the US has to be preceded with a disclaimer on how they love the country or followed by a justification. We may be hypocrites; but so are other countries. Our wars may be violent; but we have to defend the worlds’ freedom or other empires were just as bad as us. Wall Street crime may be crashing the global financial system; well that was just a few bad apples and isn’t capitalism grand.
Quite some sweeping statements. I know many Americans who don't fit your description.
It is interesting how popular Obama is so perhaps Americans are not as hopeless as you seem to believe.
I understand your anger with many of the policies of the current administration, and so does a rather large percentage of Americans. It is too early to write all of them off.
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
btu2012 wrote:
I understand your anger with many of the policies of the current administration, and so does a rather large percentage of Americans. It is too early to write all of them off.
We're not all like that. Isn't that another justification for the actions of the Empire? Are there really any Americans that think that the Republic is a failure?
You are right, a friend called me a bigot, but why should I bother to differentiate good Americans from bad. Americans don't bother to differentiate one foreigner from another, good Muslims from bad.
When talking to friends I used to check my audience before making anti-American comments, now I don't bother, everyone feels the same way. In one group there was a person with dual citizenship, she said I don't mind you making anti-American comments just don't look at me when you do.
The funny thing is I've liked any Americans I've gotten to know. The problem is when you get three or more Americans together they want to invade someone. It's an issue of the general vs. the specific, individually Americans are OK but the Empire is another thing. I am trying to deal with my anger but every day there is more evidence to support it.
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MalcolmV wrote:
I disagree, the President is a figurehead
Sorry. I can't go down that rabbit hole with you.
MalcolmV wrote:
If there is a bullseye on the US it's one that you have painted yourself.
I voted for Gore and Kerry.
MalcolmV wrote:
Too bad America didn’t think of this before they invaded Iraq and maybe you could think of this before you invade Iran.
Referring to 'America' as a monolithic entity is dehumanizing.
MalcolmV wrote:
Yes; the US was born in violence and continues to be a violent country.
There are degrees of violence. I am not stepping into crossfire when I walk out of my home. I do not see any rationale for a violent revolution in the US as long as political avenues remain.
MalcolmV wrote:
If you look through the die-off threads you’ll see the level of compassion Americans have for the suffering of their fellow man
Which is why I have the most heartless posters on peakoil.com 'ignored'. You should try it. It'll save you a lot of stress.
MalcolmV wrote:
Will Americans have compassion for their fellow citizens? Why should foreigners have any compassion for Americans? America has a lot of bad karma to work out. It will be interesting.
PO will bring out the best and the wrost in the human condition as any crisis does.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
We're not all like that. Isn't that another justification for the actions of Canada? Are there really any Canadians that think that Canada is a failure?
You are right, a friend called me a bigot, but why should I bother to differentiate good Canadians from bad. Canadians don't bother to differentiate one foreigner from another, good Americans from bad.
When talking to friends I used to check my audience before making anti-Canadian comments, now I don't bother, everyone feels the same way. In one group there was a person with dual citizenship, she said I don't mind you making anti-Canadian comments just don't look at me when you do.
The funny thing is I've liked any Canadians I've gotten to know. The problem is when you get three or more Canadians together they want to blame someone for their unhappiness. It's an issue of the general vs. the specific, individually Canadians are OK but Canadian education is another thing. I am trying to deal with my anger but every day there is more evidence to support it.
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
Cool, you can dish it out but you can't take it, eh?
btu2012 wrote:
Are there really any Canadians that think that Canada is a failure?
Yes, I think Canada is a failure. There are several secessionist movements in Canada. Many Quebecois and Newfoundlanders, Albertans and Cascadians think they would be better off independent of Canada.
Apparently, there are also Americans who think they would be better off without the Republic.,The Middlebury Institute studies separatism and secession movements in North America. There are about 16 groups seeking separation from the US. Such as Republic of Lakota, Vermont Republic and Aztlan.
I wanted to thank MrBean for the concept of subsidiarity. It may be a way to navigate between chaos and fascism. So I will support Quebec separation in the next referendum.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
I just copied and pasted your post with Canada substituted for the US.
I don't think that the US is the spawn of Satan. I happen to have some respect for the American republic as a historic achievement. What's left of that republic is debatable but claiming that its whole history was a failure is a bit of a stretch. Especially if one compares it with other forms of government practiced at the time.
Criticizing US leaders, the US system as well as US culture, education etc is quite reasonable. But you can't possibly know what and how all Americans think.
In my opinion one has to make an effort to differentiate between good and bad Americans, Canadians, Russians, Chinese, Germans etc no matter how difficult that might be. Failing to do so is totalitarian and dehumanizing -- the very essence of the process through which we managed to kill each other by the millions during the past century.
About half of the US population did not support Bush in either 2000 or 2004. Those people are likely to share many of your opinions about recent US foreign policy and about the internal situation of the US. A large fraction of Americans do not want the US to have an 'empire' or to play the role of world policeman or even hegemon. Such people exist both on the left and the right of the US political spectrum, and they are quite exasperated with what has been happening in the US for the past few decades.
It is also convenient to demonize a single country and blame it for everything that's wrong with the world. Reality is much more complicated in that the system of global capitalism is a collective creation in which many other nations benefit from certain US policies, and therefore support them even though they sometimes like to pretend otherwise. This doesn't reduce the responsibility of the US but can help one view things in proper perspective.
Regarding subsidiarity, it is not meant (at least in the EU) as an excuse for dismembering nation states. There are good reasons to be weary of fracturing societies and nations in this manner, and one can learn about the dangers by looking at the recent history of Yugoslavia.
The idea of radical ethnic autonomy has been tried before (for example in the early days of the Soviet Union) with somewhat uninspiring results.
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
BTU, I got that you threw back at me what I had written to see how it felt to be the object of bigotry. Now I understand slightly better what it must feel like to be a member of a minority. I wonder if Jenab6 understands this as he make his white supremacist and anti-Semitic comments in the Liebig's Law & Overshoot thread.
I don't think the whole history of the Republic is a failure. 260 years ago it was an innovative concept. Even a failed experiment gives negative results. But you can’t run anything as complex as a country by a set of rules. Now the Constitution has been deified and is used as a shield by scoundrels. In Canada the constitution is not that important so we pay more attention to the quality of the politician.
You are absolutely right that it is the elites that I have an issue with. That's why I try to speak of the Empire, Mulroney had to sign NAFTA with Reagan. Like the Vichy government of occupied France. It is still the American Empire and some anger is going to spill over to those who don't deserve it.
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
btu2012 wrote:
The idea of radical ethnic autonomy has been tried before (for example in the early days of the Soviet Union) with somewhat uninspiring results.
Yeah, but in the 20's the 170 or so minority ethnicities really were inspired for having the same "radical" rights at least on paper that UN today in vain tries to impose as ethnic minority rights. Even though in 20's the country was both in civil war and invaded by foreign capitalist powers. Then came 30's and Stalins "national socialism".
I really don't see what do you mean by "radical" when discussing ethnic autonomy. That was allready as fundamental principle in the human rights charter of the French Revolution. And I don't recall your founding fathers trying to impose one ethnicity and language (e.g. anglosaxon national chauvinism) over all others in their Constitution - at least in principle.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MrBean wrote:
I really don't see what do you mean by "radical" when discussing ethnic autonomy. That was allready as fundamental principle in the human rights charter of the French Revolution. And I don't recall your founding fathers trying to impose one ethnicity and language (e.g. anglosaxon national chauvinism) over all others in their Constitution - at least in principle.
There is a difference between autonomy and separatism. Do you really want a Europe consisting of 1000 versions of Kosovo ?
Local autonomy is practical, but separatism can be counter-productive.
Regarding the US, it needed an 'official' language for purely pragmatic reasons (just as English is lingua franca in Brussels for all practical means).
Separatism would lead to countless problems. As a minor example, one would need to add a large number of languages and dialects to the already unpractical list of 'official' EU languages. Are you ready to conduct your business in Basque or Romani ?
In my opinion one ought to integrate subcultures and ethnic groups in a workable community. From this perspective multiculturalism is dangerously close to "identity politics", which can be unworkable and divisive. It is possible to have respect for ethnic culture and traditions (and encourage and support their expression) without making these into the cornerstone of social, cultural and political identity.
We do not have to be defined by our ethnic origins.
Thinking about this, it seems obvious that we can chose to be defined by other factors, such as adherence to certain ethics, choices about the value we place on rationality and so on. This is closer to personal autonomy in that such beliefs aren't simply the product of being accidentally born in some particular period and place and being enculturated within some particular social and ethnic group.
Ultimately everyone has a choice between being defined by an outer force or by his own will and reason. Ethnic subcultures are a collective creation of the people of the past, and there is no more justification to submit to them than to anything else. One can study their message and keep what one finds valuable while discarding the rest. Tribal cultures are not "superior" just because they are tribal and universalizing messages (such as Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism etc) are not "inferior" just because they are meant to be universal. One can simply judge all of them on their merits.
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