Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
mos6507 wrote:
Kaj wrote:
In America, its a race between this at the top, and democratic resistence from below. I do not envy the task of the true American patriots who are attempting to restore democracy to America against formidable forces. Good, luck my friends.
Is it possible for you to make a rational point without sounding like a blind fanatic?
I read the PO forums, but rarely post because I would be coming from a place of anger and I don't think it would be constructive. I had thought to post to complement Kaj on how nicely and gently he had made his point.
That mos6507 thinks that Kaj's post shows "blind fanaticism" makes me think that he underestimates the level of feeling in the world against the Empire. I am trying to understand the American mindset so I would be interested in further thoughts on why Kaj is a fanatic.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
The simple fact that one can make such comparisons online on a board hosted in the US proves that there still IS a difference between the former and the SU or Nazi Germany.
In my humble opinion.
It is also interesting that the US opposed both of these despotic powers at pretty serious cost.
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
Kaj wrote:
The Soviet Union, the Third Reich and the US are all rotten apples alike in this sense: in all three economic models we see a concentration of elite power in a government-industry nexus. When you structure a society like that, abuse of power follows.
Kaj only compared the concentration of power. The Executive Office has been accumulating power to itself for some time and has committed illegal acts to which it has not been held accountable. The danger of the military/industrial complex to democratic government has been known for some time. I heard Sen. Ted Kennedy speak; he said the biggest change in Washington that he has seen is the money. The best government money can buy.
I believe I that I am allowed to speak this way because no one will take any notice. It gives the illusion on freedom without the substance. If I did annoy the administration I have no rights to protect me. There is no longer the right of privacy, habeas corpus or speedy trial and if at someone’s whim I was declared an enemy of the state I would have no rights. It does not matter that I am a Canadian not a USian, the Empire has no respect for boundaries. When the Rev. Martin Luther King started to speak about economic equality he was assassinated.
BTU wrote:
It is also interesting that the US opposed both of these despotic powers at pretty serious cost.
Of course they did, as the Highlander said, "there can be only one"
BTU, I have enjoyed your witing about ethics, especially in the "Lifeboat Ethics" thread, and yet you seem to be a "Patriot" so I am interested in what you have to say.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
btu2012 wrote:
Fair points Mr Bean.
But how would fracturing the society of the US along ethnic and cultural lines help with any of this ?
How would multiculturalism in the US make its capitalism less pernicious ? What would hold an ethically fragmented society together ?
Does the US federal state - or EU federalism for that matter and any and all nation states - help or could the world be better without them, as they seem to be part of the problem, not the solution?
Nuclear holocaust aside, humanity does not become extinct with the coming catastrophies but the tough buggers that we are will keep on living and procreating in some manner, so there is reason and even obligation to ponder possible ways of post-society and do what we can in this day and age. As for that, I'm very interested in the philosophy of "localism" which is closely related to "anarco-primitivism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism), multitude of small communities that are basically self-sufficient and forming networks for shared interests, but each unique and different.
First of all, this would satisfy the maxim "don't put all the eggs in one basket", and there is well grounded argument that fragmentary multitude&variety is ethical in itself, at least when compared to any and all forms of universal totalitarianisms.
Quote:
I am not sure that the maniacal greed displayed by the current form of globalized capitalism is an expression of euro-american culture rather than its destroyer. The New Testament doesn't condone greed (defined as a sin), domination of others, genocide or ethnic cleansing.
Which christianity are we speaking about? As a "pagan" respecting the old local gods I have a very big problem with the Paulian missionary christianity of "go and make all men my disciples" (cf. "procreate and fill the Earth") which is very much behind the euroamerican universal totalitarianism; missionary christianism and missionary rationalism of technocentric Enlightment philosophy are just two sides of same (evil) coin.
On the other hand, I have great respect for the "gnostic" Christ and his teaching, especially the Gospel of Thomas; and especially the spirit of early christian communions (before Nicean papalism and empire-worship of centralized authoritarian christian churches) and some forms of christian monasticism is not that different from ideals of philosophy of localism; such christianity plays a big role also in the ecovillage movement, in harmony and mutual respect with pagan, buddhist etc. forms of spiritualism.
PS: it seems to me that missionary christianism is behind the the current extremely harmfull copyright mania of pure greed that is based on the philosophically totally unsound consept of "intellectual property" or "spiritual property" as the concept translates into my language. Missionary christianity places a copyright claim on salvation/enlightment/etc when making the totalitarian argument that worshipping Jesus is the ONLY way and if you don't agree you go to hell. Then missionary christianity creates the hell... here on Earth...
Last edited by MrBean on Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:27 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
mos6507 wrote:
Only on peakoil.com is treating the Soviet Union, Nazism, and the US as all one in the same NOT be treated as a troll.
They are all nation state manifestations of the same technocentric civilization worshipping greed that originated in Europe and became via colonialism the current global capitalistic totalitarianism, which is about to crash because of PO etc are putting stop to its cancer like greedy growth. Will the cancer also manage to kill the host - the biosphere and the Earth - remains to be seen.
Joined: Aug 27, 2006 Posts: 123 Location: occupied Canada
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MrBean wrote:
Does the US federal state - or EU federalism for that matter and any and all nation states - help or could the world be better without them, as they seem to be part of the problem, not the solution?
In Christopher Alexanders' "A Pattern Language" companion volume to "The Timeless Way Of Building" the first pattern he describes that would lead to liveable community is; Independent Regions.
"Metropolitan regions will not come to balance until each one is small and autonomous enough to be an independent sphere of culture.
Whereever possible, work toward the evolution of independent regions in the world; each with a population between 2 and 10 million; each with its own natural and geographic boundaries; each with its own economy; each one autonomous and self governing; each with a seat in a world government, without the intervening power of larger states or countries."
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:10 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MalcolmV wrote:
BTU, I have enjoyed your witing about ethics, especially in the "Lifeboat Ethics" thread, and yet you seem to be a "Patriot" so I am interested in what you have to say.
I am not a "patriot".
I agree with what you said above and think that the US is in serious political, economic and social trouble. But people need to keep perspective. It might become a sort of despotism but it's not there yet. Let's see what the elections bring this year.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MrBean wrote:
Does the US federal state - or EU federalism for that matter and any and all nation states - help or could the world be better without them, as they seem to be part of the problem, not the solution?
The nation state appeared as a response to the empires of times past. I think that EU federalism might be a solution for Europe -- given the specific situation of the continent.
It is hard to judge things in a very long time perspective since there are so many unknowns. Nationalism is part of the problem but so are imperialism, feudalism etc. Localism might work on small and medium scales, but you would still need a system to prevent arbitrary concentration of power. It isn't an easy problem.
Quote:
Which christianity are we speaking about? As a "pagan" respecting the old local gods I have a very big problem with the Paulian missionary christianity of "go and make all men my disciples" (cf. "procreate and fill the Earth") which is very much behind the euroamerican universal totalitarianism; missionary christianism and missionary rationalism of technocentric Enlightment philosophy are just two sides of same (evil) coin.
We could start talking about Christianity as envisioned by Jesus himself. Missionarism is not intrinsically negative as long as it doesn't pursue conversion by force or constraint. What people did with the Christian message is a mixed bag,
but it is quite clear, in my opinion, that Judaism and Christianity elevated the ethical sensibility of the Mediterranean world. They also had a positive influence on the peoples who settled in Europe during the 'dark ages'. I wouldn't correlate European colonialism (and even less the Enlightenment) with Christianity (an outgrowth of Judaism which was strongly influenced by Hellenistic thought). The Enlightenment was explicitly anti-religious and anti-Christian. In many ways it substituted a materialist eschatology for the Christian one -- with the consequences we see nowadays.
Quote:
On the other hand, I have great respect for the "gnostic" Christ and his teaching, especially the Gospel of Thomas; and especially the spirit of early christian communions (before Nicean papalism and empire-worship of centralized authoritarian christian churches) and some forms of christian monasticism is not that different from ideals of philosophy of localism; such christianity plays a big role also in the ecovillage movement, in harmony and mutual respect with pagan, buddhist etc. forms of spiritualism.
We seem to both respect early Christianity. I agree that things were corrupted after it became an official religion of the Roman Empire, but I would view it as a largely positive influence on Europe also after that. Many bad things attributed to Christianity itself were explicitly repudiated by it and its representatives; a similar story holds for Judaism.
Quote:
PS: it seems to me that missionary christianism is behind the the current extremely harmfull copyright mania of pure greed that is based on the philosophically totally unsound consept of "intellectual property" or "spiritual property" as the concept translates into my language. Missionary christianity places a copyright claim on salvation/enlightment/etc when making the totalitarian argument that worshipping Jesus is the ONLY way and if you don't agree you go to hell. Then missionary christianity creates the hell... here on Earth...
It's quite unfair to relate copyright law with Jesus (who strongly argued that one has to give away private property and share one's wealth).
The idea of ONE path for salvation is not unique to Christianity (what about Islam ?) and it is debatable to what extent its extreme versions can be traced to the original source. One may recall that Christianity originated from Judaism, a monotheistic religion surrounded by a sea of polytheism, and that it developed in a polytheistic milieu with which it was in competition.
The idea that God is one (Shema Israel ... ) was already quite unacceptable for many at that time.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MalcolmV wrote:
In Christopher Alexanders' "A Pattern Language" companion volume to "The Timeless Way Of Building" the first pattern he describes that would lead to liveable community is; Independent Regions.
It is interesting that the EU seems to be evolving in that direction through the accent put on regionalism.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
btu2012 wrote:
The nation state appeared as a response to the empires of times past. I think that EU federalism might be a solution for Europe -- given the specific situation of the continent.
I used to be pro EU because of possibility of European suprastate democratic enviromentalism, but in light of recent developments EU is going into opposite direction, namely antidemocratic corporate fascism, and what envirementalism there is is just window dressing without practical significance.
Quote:
It is hard to judge things in a very long time perspective since there are so many unknowns. Nationalism is part of the problem but so are imperialism, feudalism etc. Localism might work on small and medium scales, but you would still need a system to prevent arbitrary concentration of power. It isn't an easy problem.
Well, it's not hard to see that the globalized growth/greed based society/empire is now hitting the iceberg, and if history teaches us anything about revolutions is that they should as non-violent as possible and build from the bottom toward upper levels of organizing (localism), not vice versa (universalism). BTW the wise principle of subsidiarety that EU has adopted in word but not in deed comes from the Catholic church. Gandhian revolution is not a bad example, nor the revolution (attempt) by early christianity, which then went sauer when adopted by Roman Empire to further the agenda of the Empire.
Quote:
It's quite unfair to relate copyright law with Jesus (who strongly argued that one has to give away private property and share one's wealth).
The idea of ONE path for salvation is not unique to Christianity (what about Islam ?) and it is debatable to what extent its extreme versions can be traced to the original source. One may recall that Christianity originated from Judaism, a monotheistic religion surrounded by a sea of polytheism, and that it developed in a polytheistic milieu with which it was in competition.
The idea that God is one (Shema Israel ... ) was already quite unacceptable for many at that time.
Btu
I'm not attributing it to Jesus but to the churches claiming monopoly on salvation, ie. a copyright of sort in his name, to further their power games, which I consider blasphemy. And didn't Jesus himself explicitely warn about those that will come and claim to speak in his name... like churches with their popes etc., and even Paul?
As important or even more important for the development of christian monotheism as the Judean monotheism has been the hellenistic philosophy, which in turn was greatly affected by Plato's hen/agathon or the Highest Idea. Which of course is not directed against polytheism but a Heraclitian "dialectic" between one and many, a union of opposites.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MrBean wrote:
I'm not attributing it to Jesus but to the churches claiming monopoly on salvation, ie. a copyright of sort in his name, to further their power games, which I consider blasphemy. And didn't Jesus himself explicitely warn about those that will come and claim to speak in his name... like churches with their popes etc., and even Paul?
As important or even more important for the development of christian monotheism as the Judean monotheism has been the hellenistic philosophy, which in turn was greatly affected by Plato's hen/agathon or the Highest Idea. Which of course is not directed against polytheism but a Heraclitian "dialectic" between one and many, a union of opposites.
I agree that there is no human monopoly on salvation. Both Hellenism and Judaism were important in the formation of Christianity. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of either.
Jesus, Paul etc were Jews, and monotheism was quite revolutionary at that time in the Hellenistic world. There are indeed parallels in Plato's philosophy but the source of Christian soteriology was Judaic.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1201 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
Well, it's not hard to see that the globalized growth/greed based society/empire is now hitting the iceberg, and if history teaches us anything about revolutions is that they should as non-violent as possible and build from the bottom toward upper levels of organizing (localism), not vice versa (universalism).
Revolution brought about by collapse is born out of independent emotional violence on a massive scale. It is only after the dust settles that power groups come forward and attempt to take credit and power. The overthrow of the powers that be is never an organized planned action. More of a spontaneous anarchy as control of the population weakens and fails. _________________ In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
Cid_Yama wrote:
Well, it's not hard to see that the globalized growth/greed based society/empire is now hitting the iceberg, and if history teaches us anything about revolutions is that they should as non-violent as possible and build from the bottom toward upper levels of organizing (localism), not vice versa (universalism).
Revolution brought about by collapse is born out of independent emotional violence on a massive scale. It is only after the dust settles that power groups come forward and attempt to take credit and power. The overthrow of the powers that be is never an organized planned action. More of a spontaneous anarchy as control of the population weakens and fails.
True to some extent. But ecovillage movement, that is organized planned action, is also revolution of a kind (and it's been said that joining one is comparable to a spiritual awaking), revolution of forming networks of self reliant communities that are not dependent of the system about to collapse but planning to survive the collapse & live with human dignity.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3134 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: how will the Empire die?
MalcolmV wrote:
Kaj only compared the concentration of power.
I'm waiting to see what happens with the election before I write off the US as a dictatorship. All the damage BushCo has done can be undone in the next administration.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
