Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
Here's one for you...
I have a South-facing sliding glass door.
I also have two unused (left over from a remodel, but you could find them in second-hand stores, recycled building materials stores, etc) MIRRORS.
Are you with me?
I put the mirrors flat on the patio outside the slider, and they reflect winter sun into the room.
It almost makes up for the asinine solar treatment local codes require on windows (North-facing, South-facing but protected by a roof overhang in summer, etc. - doesn't matter - gotta keep that sun out!).
Each 3x4 foot mirror reflects a bright patch of light into the room and onto the ceiling for HOURS on a sunny day, and you can FEEL the heat if you put your hand in the beam. The room is lots brighter too!
SolarDave _________________ Posted from a Solar/Pedal Powered Computer
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2717 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
I looked into tankless electric for my hotwater put I couldn't fit a 200 amp breaker panel into my current location. That made it a very expensive proposition to switch. Insulating a regular tank should make a noticable difference. Turning down the thermostat on it will make a larger difference. I've done lots of efficiency changes and at this point my hotwater tank is roughly 40% of my electric usage. I'm hoping to cut it back with a homebrewed solar hotwater setup this summer.
By far my biggest savings of electricity came from replacing a pump in my filtration system that was costing me around $20/month and changing from 100% electric heat to 99% wood heat.
I agree that jevons will get us in the end but in the mean time I save about $800/year that I can put to other things like guns, ammo, food or other things that save even more money in the long run.
Every little bit helps you out, but nothing will save civilization. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
patience wrote:
Pixie, or anyone, I've been considering a tankless water heater. I've heard some downside, that flow rate has to be up to a minimum, or it doesn't work. also, that going from gas to tankless saves money, but don't know if going from electric to electric tankless would save anything? And the electric tankless wants some MAJOR heavy wire and breaker. I know, big surge in use, then nothing till next time. But can I gain much from a well insulated tank heater, currently electric. Don't have, don't want gas. Input anybody?
We had electric tankless water heaters in Honduras, where they are quite common among people who can afford one. They were just little showerhead units that hung overhead and showered warm water directly down on you. The Hondurans would ground them out to the pipes themselves, which meant that you were fine when you first turned the water on, and you were fine while you showered, but when you reached for the faucets to turn them off, you near-electrocuted yourself. EVERY TIME! It was such jolly good fun! In terms of power usage, yes, I am sure they save electricity, but the ones I have seen are quite dangerous. I don't know if there is anything better out there.
I would recommend solar water heaters first. If you are in a northern clime, there are some really good frost-free models that circulate antifreeze instead of water and then use a heat exchanger to heat the water inside your house. _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
SolarDave wrote:
Here's one for you...
I have a South-facing sliding glass door.
I also have two unused (left over from a remodel, but you could find them in second-hand stores, recycled building materials stores, etc) MIRRORS.
I put the mirrors flat on the patio outside the slider, and they reflect winter sun into the room.
Each 3x4 foot mirror reflects a bright patch of light into the room and onto the ceiling for HOURS on a sunny day, and you can FEEL the heat if you put your hand in the beam. The room is lots brighter too!
SolarDave
Cool idea, but tell me you don't blind yourself every time you try to walk through those sliders. _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
Thanks, Pixie, I'm thinking solar preheater, too. Our new porch kinda threw a wrench in that for the perfect site for it, however.
My thought is a solar preheater, in line, since I'm concerned about anti-freeze leaks. Doesn't take much ethylene glycol to kill you. Drain it in winter, and heat water on the woodstove. We once had a water heater tank in a woodstove plumbed up to auto circulate, and we turned off the electric heater as long as we had a fire. Now that outfit is out of business. I'll look for that.
Sounds like the Hondurans were trying to save on buying wire! Poor economy, if it kills you! US electric code is good.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
patience wrote:
We once had a water heater tank in a woodstove plumbed up to auto circulate, and we turned off the electric heater as long as we had a fire. Now that outfit is out of business. I'll look for that.
A google search for "wood stove water heater" gave me several choices, of which this looked pretty close to what you are talking about:
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
Thanks, Pixie and Nationwide! I'll check into those. FWIW, the one we had was steel lined with teflon, a rectangular tank about 2" thick x 6" high x 16" long, bolted to the inside of the firebox. A 3/4" pipe led into and another out of the stove. A caveat was, the thing thermosiphoned thru the water heater (hot water rises) to circulate. No pump. This necessitated that the water heater be relocated close by, and mounted higher than the stove tank. NOT easy to accomplish, but it worked like a charm. There was some replumbing to the water heater, to achieve the in and out. A tee was added to the bottom drain and one to the top "in" line.
There is the possibility of reverse thermosiphon, if the fire is out, so a check valve is added to the bottom line. I think I could easily fab this up in the shop-many people could. I'd have to research the check valve to find one that would open easily enough. Maybe get it from these mfrs.
The loop of pipe would need to be firmly attached to the stove inside, lest a big hunk of oak damage the connections. Our old one was sealed with furnace cement where the pipes went in and out of the stove.
If you can achieve the location of the water heater relative to the stove, this is practical. Two warnings: put in a new pop-off (pressure relief valve) and pipe the outlet OUTSIDE, because it WILL blow off if you over fire the stove, and be careful about the water temp, especially with kids, as the water can be SCALDING hot!!!!
Our experience was pretty much all positive, FWIW. I'll try to do this again. In combination with a solar preheater, for warm weather use you can get hot water all year for essentially nothing.
Joined: Aug 07, 2005 Posts: 302 Location: Columbia, MO
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
FoolYap wrote:
I would love to be able to get our thermostats set lower when we're there (68 on 1st floor, 65 on second), and even lower at night when we're sleeping (we switch off the 1st floor, 65 on 2nd where the bedrooms are), but my wife's at her tolerance levels as-is, so I compromise.
--Steve
One of the things I find very helpful is when the seasons change, to acclimatize myself. I wear the same clothes year round at work (I work in a lab so the temperature is the same year round), and make myself not wear or take off anything extra in winter or summer unless I am outside. I notice that if one wears a lot of clothing inside during the winter, one feels colder outside and in colder rooms. I sleep with one blanket, in shorts, in a house that is anywhere from 50 - 60. I've used only my woodstove this year - furnace has never been on.
Acclimatizing saved me huge amounts on my heating bill before I got the stove, and it saves me lots of wood now.
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
Pixie wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Don't worry too much about saving electricity in the winter. Incandescent bulbs, dirty refrigerator coils, etc. don't really hurt you much because the energy that is "wasted" is technically just heat energy which will ultimately reduce the energy required to heat your home. The same goes for your hot water heater and hot water pipes.
In winter, the only thing that really matters is the insulation separating the living areas of your home from the unheated exterior. Everything else is just details.
Obviously, the summer is a different story.
UNTRUE!
Energy saving appliances help at any time of year. A few years ago, I bought a tankless hot water heater and a front load washer. Since I heated both my water and my home with natural gas, I thought it might be a wash in the winter time, because the waste heat was heating the house. I found instead that both of these saved me on my natural gas bill, even in the winter.
I kept really close records of my energy use when I had my own house. I tracked my daily energy use versus outdoor temperature before and after on an excel spreadsheet. I then used the statistical features of Excel to plot the closest fit line on each set of data, and found that outdoor temperature explained about 90% of the variability in my energy use before I bought the tankless heater and after. However, the entire line shifted downward after the purchases. Regardless of the outdoor temperature, I saved energy by reducing my water heating costs. In fact, my savings were much higher in the winter than in the summer.
Remember that the water flowing into your house is COLDER in the winter than in the summer. It takes more energy to heat it to the desired temperature in the winter. The more efficiently you can do that, the more you will save.
I question your tracking methods.
This is a simple matter of physics. Any "wasted" electricity is wasted as heat. Any "wasted" energy in your hot water heating system is wasted as heat. As long as the heat is wasted inside your house, then it is collected in your house and will reduce your home heating cost.
Now, if your natural gas costs substantially less than electric heat, then you are better off "conserving" your electricity and shifting more of your home heating burden to natural gas. But I'm speaking purely in terms of total energy saved, not money saved. (I'm ignoring the wasted electrical energy involved in power transmission. That's probably much less efficient that the transmission of energy via natural gas piping. I'm no expert on the matter.)
To take the argument to the extreme, it would be almost as efficient to heat your house by simply leaving the refrigerator door open, as it would be to utilize an electric space heater. (The only minute difference is that some of your refrigerator's energy is converted to kinetic energy in the compressor and movement of the refrigerant. Kinetic energy does nothing to heat your home.)
There are some exceptions. Dryer heat is wasted to the exterior which is an extraordinarily wasteful process. Hanging your clothes would certainly save substantial energy over drying them.
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
nate33 wrote:
I question your tracking methods.
This is a simple matter of physics. Any "wasted" electricity is wasted as heat. Any "wasted" energy in your hot water heating system is wasted as heat. As long as the heat is wasted inside your house, then it is collected in your house and will reduce your home heating cost.
.
That tank was heating water all day and all night, whereas I did not heat my house to the same level when I was at work or asleep, so tank heaters waste heat by producing it when it is not needed. In addition, my tank was located in a back corner of my basement that I had no need to heat. Most people's tanks are either not in their living space or are stuck in a closet, so their waste heat is not distributed to the living space.
nate33 wrote:
Now, if your natural gas costs substantially less than electric heat, then you are better off "conserving" your electricity and shifting more of your home heating burden to natural gas. But I'm speaking purely in terms of total energy saved, not money saved.
.
I didn't switch. It was natural gas before and natural gas afterward. You can question all you want, but I took every data point I had for six years, and I understand statistical analysis. I'm talking empirical data and you are talking theory.
I understand your argument, and I used to believe it myself before I tried it. However, like any thought experiment, your argument makes simplifications that don't represent the real world. Your argument only works if
a) your tank is in the middle of your living space, is not in a closet,
b) and you keep your space heat at the same level day in and day out,
c) and you distribute its waste heat throughout your living space.
There's probably other complexities that I am not even thinking of, and you definitely aren't. _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Practical Tips for Reducing Energy Consumption
We're not American and for me the savings are very good, but it's like coming down from a VERY energy guzzeling lifestyle to something more moderate.
If you need heating in winter - do you really need cooling in summer? (We're living in subtropical climate and use sometimes fans but not more than half an hour or so).
As we lived in Europe we setted our heating always at 16 degrees C at night and 18°C during the day and we turned off while we were away. It is said that 1°C lower temperature saves round 6% heating energy.
In Europe we didn't have a car, we used public transport bike and car sharing - maybe it's a good idea to begin a car sharing, however in Australia we have got a car, due to the structure of the city and the bad public transport. It's a rusty thing with holes and not efficient at all, but I try not to use it (as well that I'm afraid of a breakdown)
We've got a solar water heater which we use for the washing machine as well. We never had a clothes dryer (for what??). We don't have lots of technical appliances but we don't leave them in stand buy.
We don't leave lights burning, only one or two lights at once.
But we do make our own bread and that's really energy guzzeling - we have in mind building a solar oven.
We certainly do have green energy.
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