Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Which of the following methods of population control would you support assuming that they could be implemented ?
progressive taxation of families by the number of children
18%
[ 11 ]
forced contraception beyond a certain number of children
0%
[ 0 ]
progressive reduction of rights by the number of children (voting rights, medicare, pension, other retirement benefits)
1%
[ 1 ]
forced sterilization after a certain number of children
16%
[ 10 ]
all of the above
23%
[ 14 ]
none of the above
30%
[ 18 ]
some but not all of the above
10%
[ 6 ]
Total Votes : 60
Author
Message
btu2012 Fission
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: Re: population control options
Bytesmiths wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
In the rich world, taxation would be key (also for dealing with the general resource/environmental problems).
Taxation as a way of effecting change only works when people have jobs. If vast numbers of people are thrown out of work (a la 1929), then the "tax tool" becomes impotent.
This is certainly true of those who have chosen voluntary simplicity, as well. Tax policy has zero impact on me, because I don't make enough money to pay taxes.
Be careful about promoting growth-based tools in a period of decline.
You are perfectly correct. However I expect that the economy will be kept functioning in some sort of emergency regime, similar to WWII. There will be a great need for large scale relocalization/public transportation/energy efficiency projects, which could be used to keep people employed.
The unemployed will likely not choose to have children, if there are no tax benefits associated with that, and if reproduction is made expensive by taxation of the associated products (value added tax on child-rearing products, given the environmental cost of having children).
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 626 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: Re: population control options
btu2012 wrote:
The unemployed will likely not choose to have children, if there are no tax benefits associated with that...
That might be a hasty assumption. I think that in times of abject poverty, reproduction goes up, because the children can be put to work at an early age, whether farming, working in a family business, or begging. _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: Re: population control options
Bytesmiths wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
The unemployed will likely not choose to have children, if there are no tax benefits associated with that...
That might be a hasty assumption. I think that in times of abject poverty, reproduction goes up, because the children can be put to work at an early age, whether farming, working in a family business, or begging.
Not if rearing them to the age where they are productive is more expensive than the benefit they could bring their parents.
One could also introduce some basic legal requirements for registering children, such as their parents should be able to provide them with a reasonable environment and education. I agree with some of gg3's proposals in this regard.
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 626 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Re: population control options
One question always remains when talk turns to "registering" children or restricting procreation -- who decides?
Would you trust the current US administration with these powers? If so, you can bet that the wealthy would be free to procreate and those living simply would bear the brunt of regulation. How about "registering children?" That didn't seem to work for the current US leader, who pretty much did as he pleased at a time when all young men were supposed to be "registered" for possible military service.
Not that I'm against limiting procreation -- I just cringe when I hear talk of regulation, because in a low-energy future, big governments are going to have less and less power.
If it doesn't come from within, we're going to have to do without. _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
Bytesmiths wrote:
One question always remains when talk turns to "registering" children or restricting procreation -- who decides?
Would you trust the current US administration with these powers? If so, you can bet that the wealthy would be free to procreate and those living simply would bear the brunt of regulation. How about "registering children?" That didn't seem to work for the current US leader, who pretty much did as he pleased at a time when all young men were supposed to be "registered" for possible military service.
Not that I'm against limiting procreation -- I just cringe when I hear talk of regulation, because in a low-energy future, big governments are going to have less and less power.
If it doesn't come from within, we're going to have to do without.
Bytesmiths,
Your point is well taken. Under normal conditions I wouldn't trust any government with such powers, they are guaranteed to be abused at least to some extent. I wouldn't support measures of this type unless more reasonable methods prove ineffective.
In the medium run almost all options look bad, so one will have to make a calculus of lesser evil. The best hope hope is
that one could achieve a relatively orderly power-down by simplifying and relocalizing our societies a bit like the Byzantine empire did after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. I would hope that extreme measures will not be needed but if things get nasty then I am not sure what the choices will be.
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