For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Which of the following methods of population control would you support assuming that they could be implemented ?
progressive taxation of families by the number of children
18%
[ 11 ]
forced contraception beyond a certain number of children
0%
[ 0 ]
progressive reduction of rights by the number of children (voting rights, medicare, pension, other retirement benefits)
1%
[ 1 ]
forced sterilization after a certain number of children
16%
[ 10 ]
all of the above
23%
[ 14 ]
none of the above
30%
[ 18 ]
some but not all of the above
10%
[ 6 ]
Total Votes : 60
Author
Message
Ludi Expert
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
How do you intend to implement this coercion? How do you intend to pass legislation in your own country? How do you intend to pass legislation in other countries?
Or is this merely more academic discussion? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
Ludi wrote:
How do you intend to implement this coercion? How do you intend to pass legislation in your own country? How do you intend to pass legislation in other countries?
Or is this merely more academic discussion?
I believe that such legislation can be passed by the usual legislative bodies, namely parliaments in Europe and Congress in the US, as emergency measures for dealing with the crisis once the crisis starts to hit. You'll likely see massive rationing of fossil fuels and there will be some serious debate about what to do, at that point people need to hear the message that one can deal with this without going to all out war. I think that the war option will not be trivial, since most nations understand that it could mean their annihilation.
This is what happened in most crises in history and in my opinion it will happen again.
If you guys get serious about implementing change, you will have to act through the system by proposing some realistic solutions which could ensure national survival. You will get a fair hearing provided that the message is not outlandish.
I know that it seems impossible given the current political environment, but the political environment will change. The same is true of the political leaders, they will change once the ineptitude of the "business as usual types" becomes apparent.
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
btu2012 wrote:
I know that it seems impossible given the current political environment, but the political environment will change. The same is true of the political leaders, they will change once the ineptitude of the "business as usual types" becomes apparent.
Btu
Ending business as usual comes in many flavors. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung all ended business as usual. Their backers all believed the solutions to be realistic, and that the methods would promote national survival.
When people lose their things - their house, car, toys - and become frightened, they are more likely to embrace extreme methods. That's history.
As for my plans....no, I don't think I'm up to becoming a warlord. I rather doubt we'll see that scenario anytime soon. My plan is to help out the secret police in a more repressive regime. Perhaps I'll even enforce the conservation some desire - while making good use of the contraband seized.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
Jack wrote:
Ending business as usual comes in many flavors. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung all ended business as usual. Their backers all believed the solutions to be realistic, and that the methods would promote national survival.
Right, that's something I think we should try to avoid. Each of these people had a communal ideology according to which the individual had to be subsumed to the greater good. A bit like "deep ecology" and some strands of "environmentalism", if you stop to think about it.
Each of these people used violent methods to impose minority beliefs on a majority. Do you see any parallel between say taxation of people who have too many children and the methods of these gentlemen ?
Regarding conservation, it can be achieved through taxation as we are already beginning to see. Guess your future is as a tax collector, not very glamorous, after all.
Btu _________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
HEADER_RACK wrote:
I say have as many kids as you can sustain yourself. If you can't sustain any then don't have any. If you have more than what you can support, oh well you will have to pay the piper. Don't make someone else pay to get you out of the fix you put yourself in and don't cry that it's not fair bullsh#t . Life isn't fair
So you would propose eliminating the subsidies for having children, if I understand correctly.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: Re: population control options
btu2012 wrote:
I believe that such legislation can be passed by the usual legislative bodies, namely parliaments in Europe and Congress in the US, as emergency measures for dealing with the crisis once the crisis starts to hit.
So your intention is to wait until the crisis to act?
BTW, when I use the word "you" I mean you, btu2012, not "somebody." I'm asking YOU, btu2012, what YOU are intending to do. Or are you just shooting the breeze here?
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
Ludi wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
I believe that such legislation can be passed by the usual legislative bodies, namely parliaments in Europe and Congress in the US, as emergency measures for dealing with the crisis once the crisis starts to hit.
So your intention is to wait until the crisis to act?
BTW, when I use the word "you" I mean you, btu2012, not "somebody." I'm asking YOU, btu2012, what YOU are intending to do. Or are you just shooting the breeze here?
Ludi,
The purpose of this thread is to understand what people think. In particular I want to gauge how the community on this board divides between extremists, naive idealists and realists.
May I ask you what *you* plan to do beyond farming for yourself ? Do you really think that this will somehow solve anything ? Or are you just shooting the breeze here ?
Btu _________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
I'm more interested in what people are DOING than what "might " be done. I'm interested in action, more than talking.
What am I doing? Helping to educate people about actions they can take for themselves. Taking action myself.
Regarding this subject - not having children.
I guess, I'm just very frustrated by the endless talking about these problems, especially since they have been studied and discussed for decades. Do you think there will be some new information revealed in this thread? If this thread were about how to motivate people to change, I mean real actions we here on the board could take to help solve problems, I would like it more. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
Ludi wrote:
What am I doing? Helping to educate people about actions they can take for themselves. Taking action myself.
I guess, I'm just very frustrated by the endless talking about these problems, especially since they have been studied and discussed for decades. Do you think there will be some new information revealed in this thread? If this thread were about how to motivate people to change, I mean real actions we here on the board could take to help solve problems, I would like it more.
The thread is not about motivating people, people on this board are motivated enough. I started the thread because I need information on people's attitudes.
Indeed the problem has been known for decades, and TPTB (by which I mean the strategic planners) have tried to tell "the people" (which include career politicians) about this a very long time ago. The people rejected the message furiously for the past 30 years, this includes the voters, academia, organized religion and the corporations. Now the situation is changing because the push came to shove. So maybe people will finally be willing to listen.
Remember that "Limits to Growth" was sponsored by the Club or Rome, i.e. the PTB (what Alex Jones and friends call the "globalists"). It's not their fault that nobody wanted to listen. Even nowadays, it's virtual political suicide to talk too clearly about the population problem in UN meetings, even though everyone there knows what the real issues are. This is not the fault of the so-called PTB, but of political parties, religious leaders and elected politicians. They have made it impossible to even mention the truth.
Btu _________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 498 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
So you would propose eliminating the subsidies for having children, if I understand correctly.
And that is all, what we can realistically hope for...
That is all what can be done, the rest is a merely academic discussion with many ideas and unacceptable solutions.
None of the projects presented by gg3 is going to be offered as a plan. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
btu2012 wrote:
By your argument, Nazi Germany should have won WW2.
...Why did Germany loose given that its military machine was qualitatively superior ?
One word: size.
BZZZZZZ, sorry you are incorrect. One word, HITLER. He bungled nearly every important move after takeover of the continent.
There is no doubt that Germany would have at least maintained it's conquests if not completed it's plan had Hitler not pushed ahead on multiple fronts. _________________ Cougar
"Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." - Brigham Young
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 628 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: population control options
truecougarblue wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
By your argument, Nazi Germany should have won WW2.
...Why did Germany loose given that its military machine was qualitatively superior?
One word: size.
BZZZZZZ, sorry you are incorrect. One word, HITLER
I think you're both wrong: it was energy.
Both Japan and Germany failed to secure cheap petroleum sources; the US had more than it could use, at that time.
WWII was essentially the first petroleum war. That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it! :-) _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
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