Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6580 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:49 am Post subject: This Old (Peak Oil) House
This Old (Peak Oil) House
I’ve been posting a lot on the “What I did…” thread about working on our old house and thought it might be helpful have a thread about house renovations in light of peak oil. If one believes declining cheap energy will impact all areas of society it only makes sense to take advantage of the current abundant and relatively cheap materials to prepare for an uncertain future.
I do have experience in many areas of construction and was a licensed general contractor for a time in Ca doing mainly commercial work, so I know building codes fairly well – at least as they were a dozen years back. I’ve also renovated old houses and my wife and me even designed and built one by ourselves. Of course, you should always check with your local officials before starting any project just to save yourself lots of hassle down the road, many jurisdictions require permits or licensed contractors to do specific work, and always check with an engineer before starting any structural work. And lastly, never, NEVER, take as fact anything you read by an anonymous poster on the internet!
I’ll try to post regularly either something I’m working on currently or maybe just a basic overview of a specific system or technique, as I understand it. Most of what I’ll post will have to do with stick framed conventional construction and not necessarily “How to Build a Bunker”. Our house is over 100 years old but many of the changes we will be making are applicable to many houses built before the seventies when energy efficiency first became a concern. Feel free to add your experiences and suggestions, perhaps as we go along we could work on a specific topic for a while and then go on to others.
So for the first topic, here is: how we picked our house.
When we decided to find a small farm, we had 2 main criteria, good ground and a well-built old house.
Well-built in my opinion is basically 2 things:
First, a well-drained, poured concrete foundation – ours has a full perimeter footing, 2 strip footings under the interior bearing walls, plus intermediate piers. It is easy to determine the type of foundation from the exterior or by looking in the crawlspace.
And second, straight, solid framing – our house happens to be framed with oak, 2x8 joists on 16” centers, 2x4 studs on 16” centers and 2x6 rafters on 16” centers. Again look under the floor and in the attic. Give careful attention to the ridgeline of the roof, it should be perfectly straight, also sight down the exterior walls and floors to find bowed or sagging studs/plates/joists.
There are many other things to look for in an ideal world but we wanted the most we could afford - and in reality, with a good foundation and framing everything else is cosmetic. An Amish family had owned our house but it wasn’t exactly postcard material, basically nothing had been done to the house in the seven years they had lived here beyond the most rudimentary repairs. Nothing that is, except removing the carpets, electrical service & light fixtures, central heat and air, electric well pump, etc. The roof was structurally sound but needed new shingles, the floors were particleboard, the kitchen cabinets were filled with dry rot and the chimneys wouldn’t pass the insurance inspectors muster.
Now that may not sound like such a good deal, but because so many folks don’t know how or even want to do anything themselves, we were able to afford much more land than if we had purchased something newer or with better “curb appeal”. To illustrate, we purchased our 2200sf house and 40ac – 10-15 of which is suitable for row crops which isn’t normal here - for 2/3 the price of a fairly new house on 3ac of basically unusable land about 3 miles away.
That’s about all I have time for now, got to work on getting the dining room insulated. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:03 pm Post subject: great idea
Very good idea Pops (this thread).
I am also looking for a old/cheap house, so that I can buy more land. But first I have to sell the house which I am living in right now. You know, the housing market is already slowing down here in Holland. For now that is my main concern; get rid of the house.
It is really getting on my nerves, you can smell recession in the air over here. Much more people want to leave the country than before.
Off course I will leave Holland asap, first I will go and later my family will follow. I am going North.
Btw do you have 10 to 15 acr areable land?
Is that about 40,000 to 60,000 sqm? Sounds a lot to me. _________________ The government will think of something
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6580 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:57 pm Post subject:
According to the internet, 10ac is 40,468.6sqm to be exact. It is rather daunting to look out on more land than I have ever owned! But it is very satisfying to look back at the big old house from across the hayfield.
As I mentioned on another thread I was getting very nervous with a mortgage hanging over my head as well – and though I hate hanging drywall it’s much better to know you are putting it in your house and not the banks. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
The most I could afford here and still be cycling distance from work was a very well built bungalow on 3/4 of an acre. It cost me $550,000. We have sold our old house and are in the process of selling 2 other properties we were renting out. Property here is still going up believe it or not but the crash must happen soon even if PO never occurred. At that I will still have a $220,000 mortgage but interest rates are due to stay low here for some time. I might get a good 10 year fixed rate. I am an engineer with the military so my job is secure as can be hoped for.
The house has its own pumped well and filtration system. I will get a wind turbine to have as backup when the power goes down. Some PVs on the roof for lights and low energy consumption fridge.
The house has a back boiler which powers the central heating when the fire is lit. I will augment or replace this with a wood stove. Wood stove can also be used for cooking obviously. Climate here is mild so we rarely get temps below -5 c or above 28 c . Hope the old gulf stream keeps flowing.
Glad to have found this site and I can see that there are some very smart people out there looking after themselves and their families. Hope all us posters come through this OK -better chance than most I suppose. _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6580 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:42 am Post subject:
What I’m working on today (or should be) is the insulation on the dining room. First a little about framing.
Houses today are framed by the “Platform” method. Build the first floor, lay the sub floor, then build walls on top of the floor, then build the second floor, lay the sub floor, build walls, then another floor, and finally the ceiling and roof. Each story is separate from the next. And each cavity between the studs is isolated.
Platform Framing
In the days before standard cut lumber, standard unit plywood, etc, building were framed using the “Balloon” method. Frame the first floor, run studs all the way from the sill to the roof, inlet “ribbon joists” into the studs to set floor and ceiling joists at the appropriate levels then lay the sub floors.
Balloon Framing
The biggest problem with balloon framing is the stud bays are continuous from basement to attic; there is nothing to stop cold air from racing up the interior of the wall – and worse by far is that the bays act like a chimney and suck fire straight into the attic as well.
To solve that problem, once the plaster is removed you simply add “fireblocking” between the existing studs at the floor and ceiling levels
OK, Here is a pic of the corner of the dinning room that I did in stages so you can see what I’m doing. Starting from the bottom right you can see the original stud bay open to the crawlspace – nice cold air vent! In the next bay to left I’ve added insulation and the fireblock is on the floor ready to be nailed in place. Continuing to the left the fireblock has been installed.
Now this wall is framed with full cut – not planed, 2x4s, I want more insulation than the R-11 or R-13 that you can get from 3-1/2” of insulation so I am “furring” out the wall at each stud, and top and bottom plate, by adding 2x2 strapping for a total depth of 5-1/2”, you can see one on the floor and another under the insulated bay to the left. This allows me to use R-19 insulation, which is a great improvement.
This brings up another problem, the old studs, since they didn’t go through a planning mill are about ¼” bigger than new 2x’s which leaves a ¼” gap between the fireblock and furring. I took care of that gap by screwing a piece of 5/8” 1hr fire rated drywall on top of the blocking – this may be overkill but it only takes a minute and costs maybe $5 for the whole room.
25 years ago fireblocking was also required 8’ in from each exterior corner since they are the most important part of the structure, I don’t believe they are required on residential construction anymore but I am installing they anyway since they add rigidity to the frame as well as another barrier to fire. I put the drywall block on these and at the ceiling as well.
Also notice in this pic the diagonal sheathing on the exterior of the wall – this adds fantastic rigidity to the frame as well but hasn’t been done for years and years.
OK, I better get to work – it’s snowing and that room needs to at least be insulated today, cause that’s where were eating Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow! I'll talk more about insulation next time.
BTW, let me know if I made any glaring errors on the diagrams or didn't make them plain enough - or if you can't see them - they are on a freeby server and may go away someday. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Last edited by Pops on Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 635 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject:
Hey Pops, your pictures don't show up. I'd love to see them!
Not to steal your thread, but houses are so expensive, I'm considering a different strategy: lots of land with a tolerable house to live in while starting from scratch.
I'd like to dig an underground house into a south-facing hillside, with geo domes for outbuildings. The underground design I like best is the "thermal envelope," with a frame building inside a concrete foundation. You only have to heat the house up from ground temperature (typically 55F year round) and you get free air conditioning in the summer.
The dome is the most efficient solid, having a better surface/volume ratio than rectangular houses with peaked roofs. The challenge is to make use of space that is not based on right angles, which can make for labor-intensive construction. But the components are highly regular, and designing a few jigs should make quick work out of all the necessary compound angles. _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 7 Location: Northeast USA
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject:
[quote="Bytesmiths"]
Not to steal your thread, but houses are so expensive, I'm considering a different strategy: lots of land with a tolerable house to live in while starting from scratch.
I agree with Bytesmith Pops. although there are plenty of homes to chose from, one must consider their needs now and in the qustionable future. Taking such important items as heating ,lighting, refridgeration, water, waste, & weather, and solar exposure into consideration.
The idea of attempting to heat a two story farmhouse in the middle of the winter when your 75 years old and in an energy depletead world is a sobering thought.
lots of land with a tolerable house to live in while starting from scratch.
Yep, I concur. Infact you could start with land and no structure. If you are in the US you could pick up a used mobile home for a song.
Doesnt matter what condition it is other than it is atleast bare-bones inhabitable.
Then you could proceed to build your own home using local materials. Historically in the eastern half of the US that was with timber based construction. I however suggest rammed earth, straw bale, cob or undergrounding your new abode. Utilizing the above materials in combination with basic passive solar techniques can obviate the need for separate insulation products, elaborate heating and cooling systems and other climate control mechanisms. Earthen products, when properly built and reinforced can be extremely durable in strength and would likely have a lifespan in excess of our own. Straw is an agricultural waste product, and when properly constructed is also very durable. All techniques provide strong sound and climatic insulating properties without the need of manufactured insulating materials needed with traditional woodframe construction. Save the wood for the trim, not the structure itself.
This form of homesteading can be done rather inexpensively, if the construction costs were spread out over time.
An alternative form of this is you could take an existing structure or mobilehome and "wrap it" with straw bales to form a more formidable structure. The house below is was wrapped with straw bales and a 600-sf addition was constructed using modified post-and-beam construction. The mobile remained inside the finished structure and the owners remodeled the existing space for kitchen, dining, sleeping and bath spaces. The new addition houses an office/study, living and dining space which is highlighted by hanging bookshelves. They also included a loft space in the new addition.
Either way should suffice. Since I am not convinced on the durability of more high-tech solutions and the civilization that created them, I prefer to stay mostly low tech, keeping as much as possible servicable by me. Why depend on a costly and complicated AC unit when a strategy of real thick walls, skillfull shading and in certain climates evaporative cooling can accomplish the same task with far fewer energetic inputs. In the winter, thick walls and solar collection (active and passive) can largely keep a home comfortable. If needed, a wood fired stove could be utilized for backup or enhancement heat source. Again, simple to maintain and energetically efficient. I would imagine in the northeastern areas, woodfired backup heat would be a sound strategy while in southern and western climates, a properly designed solar structure would suffice.
Of course, thats if I had my way. Finances limit me to an uninsulated turn of the (twentieth) century rental structure heated by natural gas. Yikes. At least I acquired a wood stove. That should by me time and help me use less gas. _________________ UNplanning the future...
http://unplanning.blogspot.com
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6580 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:45 am Post subject:
Certainly there are other systems that would be more energy efficient than we could ever make this house, more appropriate for different climates, better suited for someone with greater or fewer funds or skills, different age, tastes or assessment of the future, etc.
Of course, as with everything else, one must prepare for any eventuality, even if what eventually happens is not much. In our case, we like old houses and don’t want to live in an underground house or spend a couple of years in an old trailer – been there!
On the other hand this house was built before widespread use of electricity, petroleum based heat, etc. It’s designed to be cool in the summer through cross ventilation, the north windows are fewer and smaller than those on the south and are vertical to allow more solar gain and better ventilation, the rooms all have doors to isolate them from the unheated areas, the front and back entrys have vestibules and are oriented away from the prevailing winter wind, the chimneys are located on interior walls, the attic is tall and well vented, etc, etc.
We still must use some creativity in retrofitting this one to be as efficient as possible, but simply because it is old doesn’t mean it’s impossible. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1236 Location: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:36 pm Post subject:
Hello. I seriously recommend the double wall superinsulated construction method. A must if your'e in a cold weather zone. My 800 sq ft house has R24 floor R45 wall and R85 factors achieved with styrofoam and some salvaged polyiso. DOUBLE (inner and outer) vapor barrier (6mil poly) and a "cool tube" which is nothing more than a 50' run of 4" sewer pipe buried 11 feet in the ground open on both ends. Vents in the ceiling create a thermosyphon effect-exhausting stale air-sucking ambient air down through the pipe, where it is warmed by contact with the earth. As the winter progresses the interior temperature of my house drops from 63 to 53 degrees without any added heat. A small box stove-with the air intake piped from outside the house, requires miniscule amounts of wood-less than 8 pounds of dry pine on a really cold day (I'm in Montana by the way)-to keep the house toasty--in fact I often "overburn" and have to open a window. Double wall frame construction is cheap and easy-no cement basement-no expensive earth berming. With some passive solar features it should be possible to build a house anywhere in northern US that will virtually "heat itself".( My solar situation is not good due to a large looming mountain so I was not able to take advantage.) Believe me, you're going to have more important things to do than fall and haul firewood just to heat air!
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1236 Location: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject:
Hello. I seriously recommend the double wall superinsulated construction method. A must if your'e in a cold weather zone. My 800 sq ft house has R24 floor R45 wall and R85 factors achieved with styrofoam and some salvaged polyiso. DOUBLE (inner and outer) vapor barrier (6mil poly) and a "cool tube" which is nothing more than a 50' run of 4" sewer pipe buried 11 feet in the ground open on both ends. Vents in the ceiling create a thermosyphon effect-exhausting stale air-sucking ambient air down through the pipe, where it is warmed by contact with the earth. As the winter progresses the interior temperature of my house drops from 63 to 53 degrees without any added heat. A small box stove-with the air intake piped from outside the house, requires miniscule amounts of wood-less than 8 pounds of dry pine on a really cold day (I'm in Montana by the way)-to keep the house toasty--in fact I often "overburn" and have to open a window. Double wall frame construction is cheap and easy-no cement basement-no expensive earth berming. With some passive solar features it should be possible to build a house anywhere in northern US that will virtually "heat itself".( My solar situation is not good due to a large looming mountain so I was not able to take advantage.) Believe me, you're going to have more important things to do than fall and haul firewood just to heat air!
I agree with the double wall insulation in center .I built mine that way.Ive got brick walls though.In Greece theres clay,where as most of our lumber is imported.I would say that the question of to buy or build has many variables.As I said before,in my situatin,I built mine big.380sq meters with the 80 being a glass enclosed east facing porch.That pretty much covers my familys needs and then some,but to get back on subject,If you make it big,that means you need to fork out the money all at once to get it finished,where as if you PLAN properly,you can make a smaller building which would be more economical and add on as needs arise.BUT plan from the start the whole finished building with the additions so as you know the end result before you start. my original layout was for 480sq.meters but because of costs I settled for 100 sq.m less for the moment. I would recommend looking into swedish fireplaces,as they hook up to the heating system and with a log in the fireplace the radiators are hot.so do a google on swedish fireplaces.Do NOT skimp out on insulation!! Thats whats going to keep you warm and your heat costs down.and if you are cutting wood,you will definitely be glad you spent the extra money on insul. Id also like to add that making a big house from scratch by yourself is not for lightweights or the faint of heart. But as one of our national heroes said once,"if we werent crazy,the revolution would have never started." Good post Pops. _________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
The idea that keeps going through my mind is that when civilization falls and/or the die-off is at full throttle, one can take the materials from already-built houses and use them to build more energy-efficient, sound ones. So the thing to know IS what materials do the best job of accomplishing that, in the geographical region in which you live? The rest is a matter of finding those who know something about building, combined with other willing souls (like me!) who would follow directions in the books about building energy-efficient, sound homes.
It's not so crazy; a few builder-types plus many regular people have been building affordable, secure homes for people through the organization Habitat for Humanity for, like, 25 years now. Something similar can be done for the small but determined communities arising from the ashes of the post-peak, post die-off period. Oh, and a few good scavengers would be nice, to find all the materials needed!
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6580 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:19 am Post subject:
Sorry I haven’t had time to post more. Insulation in an old house is very important of course but air infiltration is even more so. An old house can exchange a volume of air equal to the entire amount in the house in less than an hour!
Leaky old double hung windows, cracked plaster, penetrations for wires and other services, and sagging doors with no weather-stripping are THE biggest problems. I used half a dozen tubes of caulking in an afternoon recently and the difference was amazing!
Good point about doulblewall construction, but it’s not just for new construction. I installed additional 2x4 walls inside a small-unheated room off the summer kitchen, along with foam insulation between sleepers on the concrete floor to use as a storeroom and it has stayed pretty moderate so far. I’m considering the same on the north walls in the house. I’m hopping stick lumber will come down in price next year after the folks down in Florida get back on their feet.
I will point out one thing about vapor barriers on the outside AND inside of the insulation. Vapor barriers for those that don’t know, are to keep water vapor out of the insulation where it can condense on cooler surfaces and render the insulation worse than useless. Typically it is installed on the inside of the house where lots of moisture is created in the kitchen and bath especially. This may be different in areas of very hot and humid conditions where there is very little winter heating required.
Here in SW Missouri, we have hot humid summers and cool (-5) dry winters, so there is a potential for vapor transmission year round. Plus the fact that the exterior shell on this old place is very loose allowing lots of air infiltration into and thereby reducing the insulation’s effectiveness, tempted me to try and seal up the inside and outside like oowolf suggested, except for one thing. If the insulation becomes wet for any reason, roof leak, torn poly, broken pipe (or even condensation from a pipe passing through the wall) and it is sealed up tight inside and out; it will have a hard time ever drying out.
The very worse thing for wood framing is moisture; dry rot can eat through a 2x6 in a single season. Even in good times, jacking up the side of a house to replace rotted sills and studs is no fun – I know.
Better, I think is a house wrap like Tyvek on the outside. It allows water VAPOR to pass through keeping things dry in winter, but will not allow passage of liquid water or a breeze. I was so worried about water damage that I didn’t place anything on the outside of the insulation since I couldn’t make it continuous; if you were insulating from the outside with the siding off, vapor permeable house wrap would be the way to go, IMO. I have also read that in areas like mine it may be even better to have no vapor barrier at all. My guess is that I will be using cross ventilation for cooling somewhere down the road so I’m more concerned about winter problems.
Same thing goes for the other insulating methods, blown cellulose installed through holes drilled in the walls provides no vapor barrier and is very susceptible to moisture. I thought if money were no object, sprayed on foam would be good but it has also been proven to have moisture problems since it give off water as it cures – of course to be cost-effective the whole house would need to be done at once and that isn’t practical for me anyway.
What I did do, was to use caulking and the little cans of spray foam liberally INSIDE the wall to fill big cracks before insulating with batts, to cut down on infiltration but leave enough air movement to keep the insulation dry. I bought a $30 infrared thermometer from Radio Shack and pointed it around the stud bays on a cool day to find the worst cracks and filled them and left the rest alone, then installed 6mil poly on the inside with duct taped joints and caulking at all edges and penetrations – especially the floor. Don’t forget to wrap the electrical boxes with poly and caulk the knockouts.
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