Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: Re: The first rule of Thermodynamics is...
Quote:
"You can't win. You can't break even. You can't get out of the game."
Mirrors on the ceiling
Pink champagne on ice
And she said
We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
Relax said the nightman
We are programed to recieve
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave
Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 2897 Location: East Texas
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: The first rule of Thermodynamics is...
MadMarcus wrote:
rwwff wrote:
Go to Rice.
Take Thermo your sophmore year.
Scream the primal scream.
Try to forget the experience as quickly as absolutely possible.
Go Owls!
Team Wiess!
I loved thermo but I had the hard core theoretical version not the mechanical engineering version. Great class.
Baker.
I did pure Math and filled in my hours with lots of Junior/Senior History, Religious Studies, Accounting, etc. I wonder, from time to time, if that was the right decision as there were several engi courses (mostly EE) I sometimes wish I had taken, though I've been well served by the skill set I ended up with.
I just don't want to give the impression that *I* took Thermodynamics.
I do remember several friends of mine undergoing a bit of shock as they hit thermo and got their first hard dose of engineering education. _________________ abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 356 Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: The first rule of Thermodynamics is...
"This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time."
"Even the Mona Lisa is falling apart."
"...everything's a copy of a copy of a copy."
"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."
Sounds like entropy to me. _________________ "He who makes no mistakes isn't trying hard enough" Genghis Khan
"Everyone here is bribed not to kill each other." foodnotlawns
Coinflation.com
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture...
"There is no easy way to make a transition from a mechanical world view based upon the idea of permanent material growth to a world view based on the idea of conserving finite resources. It took thousands of years to make the transition from a hunter gatherer existence to an agrarian one. It took hundreds of years to move from an agrarian existence to an industrial one. In both instances, we had plenty of time and resources to make the radical adjustments required. Today, we are being forced to make a transition from the Industrial Age of non-renewable resources to a new and still undefined age based once again on renewable resources or some new primary science--and do it in less than one generation, or even less."
How long did it take us to make the transition from paper and pen to computers? A decade or two?
Things move faster these days. Easy and "immediate" communication make it much easier to share information. We're not even in the land of air mail and waiting for someone to get off the phone any longer. We don't have to drive to the library to look something up.
Plus, we don't live in a closed system. We have a constant (at least for the next few billion years) input of new energy.
Sure, we have a big change ahead of us. A change from a petroleum based system to a system that more directly uses solar energy. And we're going to have to tame coal use while expecting it to go into short supply not that many decades in the future.
So we go to work. We crank out lots and lots of not-all-that-efficient solar panels, less than optimally designed wind mills, funky wave generators, and all the other short term fixes we can imagine. We turn (essentially) all our hydro into pumped storage facilities. We push the limits with other storage systems.
We cobble together some quick fixes for harder to fix problems such as transportation. Think lots of car pooling and lots of new buses on the road.
We limit our diets to easier to grow, more locally grown, in-season food. No more grapes from Chili in January. Forget the mangos from Mexico.
Folks actually replace their lightbulbs with CFLs. (And hopefully LEDs.) The government creates a major program to replace energy hog appliances with energy star+ appliances.
Joined: Mar 12, 2007 Posts: 890 Location: As close as I can get to the beginning of the pipe.
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture.
BobWallace wrote:
How long did it take us to make the transition from paper and pen to computers? A decade or two?
Things move faster these days. Easy and "immediate" communication make it much easier to share information. We're not even in the land of air mail and waiting for someone to get off the phone any longer. We don't have to drive to the library to look something up.
Technology is not equal to energy. Be very afraid of going down as fast as we went up. Technology just helps us to burn energy faster.
Quote:
Plus, we don't live in a closed system. We have a constant (at least for the next few billion years) input of new energy.
...of really dilute energy, of which nature does a much better job of using than man.
Quote:
Sure, we have a big change ahead of us. A change from a petroleum based system to a system that more directly uses solar energy. And we're going to have to tame coal use while expecting it to go into short supply not that many decades in the future.
We'll go back to using solar to grow crops the old fashioned way, without tractors and fertilizers. The problem will be that, unlike in the old days, we are/will be way over carrying capacity for non-industrial agriculture without fossil fuel supports. And coal will quickly become less than 1 for EROEI if you can't use giant earth-moving equipment to level mountain tops.
Quote:
So we go to work. We crank out lots and lots of not-all-that-efficient solar panels, less than optimally designed wind mills, funky wave generators, and all the other short term fixes we can imagine. We turn (essentially) all our hydro into pumped storage facilities. We push the limits with other storage systems
.
That's about 6% of our energy needs, there. What about the other 94%?
Quote:
We cobble together some quick fixes for harder to fix problems such as transportation. Think lots of car pooling and lots of new buses on the road....And we squeak by.
The American way of life is non-negotiable, yessirree. Welcome to Peak Oil, roberto. Where y'all from?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: Re: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture.
Iaato wrote:
Technology is not equal to energy. Be very afraid of going down as fast as we went up. Technology just helps us to burn energy faster.
Yes and no. Technology isn't equal to energy, but it also won't result in increased use of energy as a hard and fast rule. It's just a tool, and it's impact depends on it's design and use. _________________
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Re: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture.
Farming:
It's quite possible to grow crops without chemical fertilizer. Some of us have been doing just that for years. Organic farming just takes a different mindset than pumping on the chemicals. And after a ~3 year transition period during which the soil quality is built up, yields are equal or better.
Tractors can easily be run with electricity. Tractors spend the vast majority of their lives parked. Good candidates for quick charging batteries or (if quick chargers are available) exchangeable battery packs.
We might even get better meat of the deal. It will be less economical to raise cattle in feed lots. That will mean more grass fed beef and less corn fed (with all the problems that causes including meat-born human illnesses).
We will, most likely change our diets. We'll eat more local, more in-season and less imported summer fruit in the middle of the winter.
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: Re: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture.
"Technology just helps us to burn energy faster. "
This statement is simply false.
Technology is currently focused on 'doing more with less' (energy).
New insulation is being developed. Look how much more efficient refrigerators have become.
New light sources are on the market and being developed. Look at CFLs and LEDs.
Electric and hybrid vehicles are constantly improving and starting to replace traditional vehicles.
Computers are using less and less power. My new laptop pulls ~15 watts. It replaces my desktop which pulled ~135 watts.
"The American way of life is non-negotiable, yessirree."
Horse hockey.
The American way of life will morph to match conditions. Things will be different in the post-petroleum future. But they won't necessarily be worse. In fact, they may be better, a lot better.
Think about a life that doesn't involve air pollution. And the health problems caused by pollution.
Think about a life free of engine noise.
Think about a life when one's food tastes better and is more nutritious.
What will we have to give up? Our Cameros, I suppose. But we get Teslas in return.
Joined: Mar 12, 2007 Posts: 890 Location: As close as I can get to the beginning of the pipe.
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Re: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture.
BobWallace wrote:
"Technology just helps us to burn energy faster. "
This statement is simply false.
Technology is currently focused on 'doing more with less' (energy).
New insulation is being developed. Look how much more efficient refrigerators have become.
New light sources are on the market and being developed. Look at CFLs and LEDs.
Electric and hybrid vehicles are constantly improving and starting to replace traditional vehicles.
Computers are using less and less power. My new laptop pulls ~15 watts. It replaces my desktop which pulled ~135 watts.
I usually don't engage in these arguments about PO or no. But I couldn't resist this one because I have an old friend who goes by your moniker who worships at the altar of technology. Just curious. This post of yours does not dissuade me that you are not him.
Yah, technology does more with less, and then it makes more of them, with more bells and whistles, with higher power and more get up and go. Cars? CAFE standards haven't changed in 30 years, and how many more cars are on the road? (Then add in the infrastructure of roads, repair, automaking, and you've got less energy use?????) Insulation & refrigerators? Have you compared the size of a fridge to 30 years ago? Not to mention all that pretty stainless steel. And who had three refrigerators AND a freezer in their family household 30 years ago? Same things for lights, and computers--well, don't get me started. Read up on Jevon's Paradox.
Quote:
The American way of life will morph to match conditions. Things will be different in the post-petroleum future. But they won't necessarily be worse. In fact, they may be better, a lot better.
I won't argue that one. I am done with this sick culture, and am patiently waiting for the world to change.
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Re: The Laws of Thermodynamics - Chatting after the lecture.
BobWallace wrote:
"Technology just helps us to burn energy faster. "
This statement is simply false.
Technology is currently focused on 'doing more with less' (energy).
New insulation is being developed. Look how much more efficient refrigerators have become.
New light sources are on the market and being developed. Look at CFLs and LEDs.
Electric and hybrid vehicles are constantly improving and starting to replace traditional vehicles.
Computers are using less and less power. My new laptop pulls ~15 watts. It replaces my desktop which pulled ~135 watts.
"The American way of life is non-negotiable, yessirree."
Horse hockey.
The American way of life will morph to match conditions. Things will be different in the post-petroleum future. But they won't necessarily be worse. In fact, they may be better, a lot better.
Think about a life that doesn't involve air pollution. And the health problems caused by pollution.
Think about a life free of engine noise.
Think about a life when one's food tastes better and is more nutritious.
What will we have to give up? Our Cameros, I suppose. But we get Teslas in return.
I can live with that.
You fail to take into account a simple law, the name alludes me right now.
Increases in efficiency mean more use, meaning equal or increased consumption.
If you can drive twice as far in your new car for the same amount of fuel, you will, if your lights use half as much energy its no longer a big deal to leave them on.
But these are really quite small issues, more efficient cars mean little as only the particularly wealthy will be buying the new cars off the market, I think it takes between ten and twenty years to completely replace the private transport fleet of America.
Also more efficiency does not mean things will last for ever.
Lastly, it doesn't take into account other energy guzzlers, such as big transport trucks that can't really lose much energy consumption.
Plus there's the economic ramification to be considered, as well as the social.
How many people will want to give up their nice big SUV's?
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