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sylviah
Tar Sands
Joined: Oct 06, 2006
Posts: 57
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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I love this quote: | Quote: | In the summer of 2005, Pulitzer Prize winner Daniel Yergin observed, "Every day, the airline industry propels the economic takeoff of our nation. It is the great enabler, knitting together all corners of the country, facilitating the movement of people and goods that is the backbone of economic growth. It also firmly embeds us in that awesome process of globalization that is defining the 21st century."
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Globalization certainly is awesome, Mr. Yergin. Way cool. Totally rad.
So glad to hear that the aviation industry is taking its cues from CERA. Now we definitely don't have anything to worry about. Everything is just awesome. |
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dukey
Fission
Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 2027
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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i was reading in the news paper yesterday or so
easyjet or ryan air were talking about the fact the predicted in 4~ years they would be able to offer flights for as low as £7 ($14usd) from major european airports such as heathrow to the states. I was like.. lol that aint going to happen 
But I think it shows something quite important about how big business and the stock market haven't caught on to the reality of the end of cheap oil. |
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Gideon
Light Sweet Crude
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Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 1142
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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Montequest is a certified asshole.
_________________
Chief of Asshole Certification
Last edited by Gideon on Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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frankthetank
Fusion
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 4446
Location: Southwest WI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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Not a sailor, but even a bassboat can get 1mpg if its really moving along, and thats a lightweight fiberglass boat. I think big boats, like barges are actually quite efficient @ moving lots of heavy stuff/vs amt of fuel spent. I swear its more efficient then by rail. I think it takes a long time, however.
_________________
"Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07 |
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nth
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 1976
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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| frankthetank wrote: | | Not a sailor, but even a bassboat can get 1mpg if its really moving along, and thats a lightweight fiberglass boat. I think big boats, like barges are actually quite efficient @ moving lots of heavy stuff/vs amt of fuel spent. I swear its more efficient then by rail. I think it takes a long time, however. |
Assuming you are not going against current. |
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Troyboy1208
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 513
Location: Orlando FL
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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| nth as a science teacher i have to disagree with you. The biggest problem is resistance. Simply put water is five times as dense as air. Therefore the resistance is much greater. Water is also noncompressable which means it has to be moved out of the way. Momentum is another problem. If you have a train and aboat that weight equilvalent amounts and get each up to 20 mph and turn the engines off i am willing to bet the train will go much further. Try walking in a pool and walking on dry ground. The water "pushes back" more than the air. |
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frankthetank
Fusion
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 4446
Location: Southwest WI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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delete
_________________
"Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07
Last edited by frankthetank on Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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frankthetank
Fusion
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 4446
Location: Southwest WI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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Just caught this...
| Quote: | | According to projections by Airbus, the nation's commercial aviation market will need about 2,650 new passenger aircraft over the next 20 years, worth $289 billion, to satisfy domestic and international travel needs, making it the world's fastest-growing market for such aircraft. |
...in an article on China's desire to create its own airplanes. So China alone is going to need that many airplanes? Wow. I wonder if they'll fly on rainbows or butterflies?
LINK
_________________
"Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07 |
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AirlinePilot
Moderator
Joined: Apr 05, 2005
Posts: 2472
Location: South of Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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Update:
Avgas (small aircraft 100LL) National average 4.15 gal
Jet Fuel Airlines Natioanl average 2.03
Both are up a few cents in the last few days, Ill start tracking it like this to watch the trend. Still looking for historical data and or graphs to post.
This is potentially a big deal, particularly for the airlines. Ill start doing some research on inventories If I can find some links. Anyone wants to help it's welcomed. |
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EnergyUnlimited
Fusion
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 3120
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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| Troyboy1208 wrote: | | nth as a science teacher i have to disagree with you. The biggest problem is resistance. Simply put water is five times as dense as air. |
There is nothing strange, that our children are progressively more and more stupid at the time of leaving school, if their science teachers are telling them, that water is 5 times as dense as air.
In reality weight of one liter of air is close to 1.3g (29/22.4, where 29 grams is "mean" molecular weight of air and 22.4 liters is a volume of 1 mole of gas under normal conditions).
This imply that water is about 769 times as dense as air (weight of 1 liter of water equals 1000g at 4*C).
Someone, who know how to do something is doing that and someone who doesn't is teaching... |
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malcomatic_51
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 24, 2005
Posts: 185
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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| Troyboy1208 wrote: | | nth as a science teacher i have to disagree with you. The biggest problem is resistance. Simply put water is five times as dense as air. Therefore the resistance is much greater. Water is also noncompressable which means it has to be moved out of the way. Momentum is another problem. If you have a train and aboat that weight equilvalent amounts and get each up to 20 mph and turn the engines off i am willing to bet the train will go much further. Try walking in a pool and walking on dry ground. The water "pushes back" more than the air. |
Just to add to what Energy_Unlimited has pointed out, air is also not especially compressed at speeds below about 350mph. It also has to be moved out of the way. Air compressibility is only an issue above about 400mph.
Ships are very efficient at moving large tonnages of bulk cargo at low speeds. They are not efficient at carrying people because the density with which you can carry people comfortably is too low (for a long voyage that is, not a short trip across the English Channel in a hovercraft). The only was to carry humans efficiently by ship is to pack them in in vile conditions as with slave ships. Ocean liners are far less fuel efficien t than aircraft at moving people. This is why the cruise liner industry will vanish if oil prices go high.
For high speed ships like liners, the greatest component of drag is wave-making resistance, rather than friction. |
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Troyboy1208
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 513
Location: Orlando FL
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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well i sit corrected  Thanks for doing it in a positive and productive manner. It would be tempting for someone to bash me...you guys took the high road and i commend you on that. The point was that water is more dense than air and it would take alot more energy to push it through water than through air. |
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jbeckton
Expert
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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| malcomatic_51 wrote: |
Just to add to what Energy_Unlimited has pointed out, air is also not especially compressed at speeds below about 350mph. It also has to be moved out of the way. Air compressibility is only an issue above about 400mph. |
Forget compression, what about viscosity (a fluids resistance to flow)? I don't know the apporx temp and pressure at flying altitude but water is about 1.00x10^-6 while air is only 1.57x10^-5. The viscosity of air is much much less than that of water. |
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lawnchair
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 770
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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For some numbers:
The A380 (500 pax) is expected to suck down 7 or 8 gallons per n.mile in favorable conditions.
The QE2 (3000 pax in a crunch, sailing to the Falklands war) consumes 180 or so gallons per nautical mile. Newer ships are somewhat more efficient.
The difference is that a ship, even a non-luxury one, has to provide beds and galleys and some level of diversion. Lots of space, not that much weight. The relative efficiency of flying does amaze people with a folk-physics understanding of energy.
On the other hand, a ship is far more omnivorous. Ships could use coal or bunker C oils. Planes... maybe with on-shore conversion at an EROEI cost that loses the above advantage. Ships could also go on nuclear propulsion or sail power. |
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AirlinePilot
Moderator
Joined: Apr 05, 2005
Posts: 2472
Location: South of Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record |
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Avgas is up another cent today $4.16, national average.
Jet fuel remains unchanged. I expect inventory issues due to the same problems we are having with auto gasoline. Our big season usually begins in may/June and lasts through to the year end holidays. |
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