Joined: Sep 30, 2004 Posts: 975 Location: On one of the blades of the fan
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
I hope you won't feel this is OT, but in parallel with Peak Oil we have seen the geopolitical consequences, which include dramatic, but stealthy reductions in civil liberties both in the UK and in the USA.
I have become increasingly worried about the UK government's ID card scheme, which is really a cover for the National Identity Register (NIR), a computerised database of quite unparalleled intrusion* on our personal lives.
For example 85 different bits of data about everyone are going to be tracked, with 1000 pound fines for failing to notify the authorities that you have moved house, for example.
Passports are shortly to be integrated into the fledgling database, with biometrics and apparently interviews with officials when you apply. I recently renewed my passport, even though it had three years to run, because I want to avoid this procedure.
The No2ID site is full of valuable and worrying information, which the media hardly cover.
How does this relate to Peak Oil? Although I have my doubts as to whether this Govt takes any notice of the issue, I do think that it will find it very handy to have tools of coercion, if there is domestic unrest as the economic consequences of PO arrive.
NOTE: * unparalleled in democracies. You'd have to look at places like East Germany under the Stasi for similar surveillance of every individual in society.
Joined: Aug 18, 2004 Posts: 3 Location: netherlands
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
How this relates to Peak Oil?
Although there's far more to it, the Government needs total control when the crap really hits the fan. It's part of the NWO masterplan, and 9/11 was a crucial part in it. It's all embarrasingly transparent once you manage to see the whole picture, but it's hard to explain to someone who still holds some faith in the Powers that Be. They're making the whole world into a prison for their own benefit, they determine who lives and who dies - all the current events are just fitting seamlessly into that image. Once the US attacks Persia and the dollar collapses, there's no turning back. Everything has been brought in line to control and exploit the following chaos. The UK government ('Yo, Blair') has been fully complicit with the Bush adminstration on Iraq and everything else, and the UK will turn into a police state just like the US. Peak Oil is a part of this, as they have known about it for decades.
So yeah, oppression ahead, labour camps for debtors and dissidents, black torture prisons, the whole sick shabang has been meticulously prepared. It's time to wake up, or else we can kiss our sweet ass goodbye... Then again, on the bright side: people really start waking up - but it's about time they did...
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
julianj wrote:
I have become increasingly worried about the UK government's ID card scheme.
It just happens that the rest of Europe has had ID cards for quite a while, with no ill effects resulting from it, except better organization, and the fact that there is no need to give your address to every damn organization you want to have any serious dealings with, like it happens in the UK, where ID is tied to name and address, instead to an ID card number.
My address, which I used to keep quite private in Spain, is all over the place in the UK, because I have had no choice.
So please, bring on the ID cards!
julianj wrote:
For example 85 different bits of data about everyone are going to be tracked, with 1000 pound fines for failing to notify the authorities that you have moved house, for example.
Julian, since I've come to the UK, I've had these electorate register letters saying that there is a fine of 1000 pounds for failing to fill them correctly, and that includes giving away your address. So that is certainly not new. And I never heard that anybody was prosecuted for ignoring them.
julianj wrote:
Passports are shortly to be integrated into the fledgling database, with biometrics and apparently interviews with officials when you apply.
I'll believe in those biometrics when I see them. It's expensive to get them for everybody, I believe. In any case, I don't object to biometrics added to my ID document, because its purpose is essentially to prove that I am who I am. I do object to having to tie that to any other information that is not to do with my identity (like -yes!- my address).
I am fed up of people telling me that ID cards would threaten civil liberties in the UK. The way I see it, the current chaos does not exactly protect my civil liberties, makes it relatively easy for others to steal my identity, and is very inefficient on top of that.
Joined: Aug 18, 2004 Posts: 3 Location: netherlands
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
Look, I already said '...but it's hard to explain to someone who still holds some faith in the Powers that Be'. As a matter of fact, I have found this excercise to be a total waste of time (and believe me, I really tried). All I can say to you is: just open your own eyes and connect the dots.
Joined: Aug 18, 2004 Posts: 3 Location: netherlands
Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
Look, I'll give you a hint. The US administration just made torture legal.
The US economy is on the verge of collapse. The US military is about to attack Iran. The US occupation turned all of Iraq into one giant bloody mess. What do you think corporate US will do with the zillions of debtors defaulting on their sky-high mortgages once the system tanks? Show mercy on their sorry little asses? Think again - it happened all before...
Joined: Aug 04, 2005 Posts: 421 Location: Traded the man in front of the tank for a cat playing the banjo
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
Dolly, the Spanish National ID document or card was created in 1944 and you just don’t know how many people got executed, arrested and tortured thanks to that very same document. It came up VERY handy for the police and the political regime. Of course now things are cool all over Europe and there is nothing to worry about, wait until a great economic depression or PO and then the whole ID thing becomes a pain in the ass. Its so easy to control people once they have ID cards because you only have to control numbers. In an emergency it can be decided that numbers from this to that are not allowed to travel, or to buy certain things, or to put gas. And there is no way around.
What I see talking here is not the ID discussion, but the technological ID discussion. Technology gives a new dimension to control, and it’s all a “steps” thing. First you are forced to have an ID, then you are forced to carry it at all times with you, then they implant a electronic chip on it to store data, then they integrate your credit card with it, then a sensor that can track your position, where is the limit? Is better not to start at all.
Ask him how he feels about ID's _________________ When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem.
Joined: May 31, 2004 Posts: 920 Location: Brno, Czech rep., EU
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
How the hell ID card threaten your liberties??
I consider them good, it's usefull tool. And it has nothing to do with opression nor does it make opression easier.
I have small card which includes basic information, like my name, birth year, photo, country and custom information of my choice (blood type). It serves as a passport for EU and at home, if I need to "prove" my identity I simply let people look at my ID card. For example if I want to sign a huge contract I ask people to show their ID cards to check basic data. I consider it good tool, usefull against many kinds of frauds and identity thefts.
Joined: Aug 04, 2005 Posts: 421 Location: Traded the man in front of the tank for a cat playing the banjo
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
Licho wrote:
it has nothing to do with opression nor does it make opression easier.
Well, if you don't live in an oppresive place it does not. But then why did the nazis and the soviets insisted so much on them? How will the world be in 10 years? Who knows.
IDs turn society into a factory and people into numbers.
That ID card that you have that includes "basic information" is attached to a number, you give that number everywhere you go and they store it in their computers. One only needs to cross diferent databases and show all the results attached to your number to know everything about you.
And guess what! An ID can be faked by professionals or bought using brives. _________________ When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem.
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
Licho wrote:
How the hell ID card threaten your liberties??
I consider them good, it's usefull tool. And it has nothing to do with opression nor does it make opression easier.
I have small card which includes basic information, like my name, birth year, photo, country and custom information of my choice (blood type). It serves as a passport for EU and at home, if I need to "prove" my identity I simply let people look at my ID card. For example if I want to sign a huge contract I ask people to show their ID cards to check basic data. I consider it good tool, usefull against many kinds of frauds and identity thefts.
An ID card, a number tattoo, an implanted chip, or the letter A on your forehead are tools of government to control. Government control is a tool in the destruction of freedom.
I think your Eastern Eurpoean indoctrination had given you a problem in knowing what is freedom and what is repression of freedom. Being forced to have government papers as a prerequisite to live your life is not freedom; rather it is evidence of government ownership of humans. I own cattle and put numbered tags in their ears so I can control them and "exterminate" (cull) those who I do not consider desirable.
Again, this is one of these "give up your freedom for security" plans that never really work, and only results in neither freedom or security.
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
ID cards today, road side checkpoints tomorrow. Then travel restrictions, then restrictions on hording, then thought crimes. Didn't Huxley write that the real war was on the citizens of the country waging the war? The external war is there largely to maintain marshal law internally. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1011 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: UK ID cards - threaten our privacy and civil liberties
Kingcoal wrote:
ID cards today, road side checkpoints tomorrow. Then travel restrictions, then restrictions on hording, then thought crimes. Didn't Huxley write that the real war was on the citizens of the country waging the war? The external war is there largely to maintain marshal law internally.
Restrictions on hording is so 1940's; in the modern era the government, when it addresses personally held supplies at all, it is whining about how people don't horde enough.
The other things I agree are possibilities we can look forward to. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
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