How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
I merged some older threads to this one you might want to check out if you haven’t already NTBK – especially pip's post on genetics a ways back. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
As a novice, I can't add much information. I (we, actually) tend to read few books because it gets overwhelming.
I regret not getting into cattle sooner. We used to raise sheep, and I hated every minute of it, as they constantly got through the fence, which wouldn't be so bad, but the pasture is next to a fairly busy road.
My partner talked about getting a cow for a long time. I resisted but eventually made a deal: get rid of sheep, get cow.
I am now in love with an American milking Devon named Belle. Here's a picture of her sire, Rufus:
Rufus is pretty famous. The farmer even has his own Website about him. Devons are fabulous for small farmers, and they go back to early American history.
Wish I had a pic of Belle. She is so beautiful, stately, matronly. We sold her first calf back to the guy we got her from, as he needed another ox for a team. Then we bought a young heifer (Hannah) from a guy in Massachusetts. I was stunned to see Belle and the new heifer take to each other like natural mother and calf! Now we can't keep her off the ***! We tie them in stanchions apart from each other, but Belle has found a way to swing around to let the calf nurse. Even using a "weaner" didn't work: Belle tolerated it. We get between one and two quarts a day.
We have only 15 acres of grazing land, so our herd will stay small (we also have two horses). We also prefer the dairying over the meat; what beef we have we buy from a local farmer.
People won't buy a quart of milk for $2 now, and I won't just give it away. Post peak, when prices rise, I expect we'll be selling more. Don figures he could milk a maximum of four cows. We've been getting better at making butter, and I'm in the middle of our third experiment with cottage cheese.
Very low tech here: the cows go out to pasture in summer, and they come in the barn in winter and eat hay. Don gives them each about a pound of all-purpose 14 grain a day, to keep them happy.
We also pasture our birds: in the summers, we just open the chicken and turkey house doors and let them spend the day in the orchard (about an acre). Rest of the year we got to keep the feeder full.
This is learn as you go. We'll breed Belle soon, and then Hannah next fall. Keep you posted. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
We sold the yearling steers at auction and made $400 on a 900# half Angus that brought $101cwt and around $200 each on the Holsteins that averaged just less than 800# and brought $88cwt.
We now have 12 weaned calves ranging up to maybe 400# and one brand new baby. That little guy was born about 2 weeks ahead of schedule on a snowy slushy evening and spent several hours on our back porch getting warm.
Since we’re raising all our calves now from babies we’ll have less than $200 invested in each and figure we can raise 30-40 head a year.
Oh and the bloat calf seems to have outgrown the bloat! I’m amazed; everyone told me to sell him because he would never outgrow it. Unfortunately, he at so much grain and milk replacer I doubt we’ll ever make our money back.
I’m starting to replace the poly-wire and soft steel wire with hi-tensile now that I have an idea how things work.
Also, with the help of a neighbor I’m about finished building a working/loading chute.
Finally – about the grass: we don’t have any. Well, we have about 5 acres of stockpiled fescue left but we haven’t had much rain for a long while and everything is brown. Second warmest January on record - but with no rain… _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
In my very limited experience, all that I have used is an intranasal vaccine, basically a flu vaccine – TSV-2.
The most important thing to do for calves taken from mom is to be sure they get mom's first milk – in the first 10 hours is best. It is chock full of every antibody mom has.
Of course you must remember my advise is only worth what you pay for it. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 21, 2004 Posts: 508 Location: Republic of Texas
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
truecougarblue wrote:
A question, and it's a repeat from when I first got my chickens started. Does anybody here recommend any specific vaccines to the calves?
As always, thanks in advance for the advice, it's priceless, and free.
I've never vaccinated my calves, but then again, my livelihood is not depending on them. I would probably look into it a little more otherwise. Blackleg and IBR are common ones people use around here. Ask your question on cattletoday.com, a lot more fulltime cattlemen there.
In my experience, if your calves stay pretty well isolated from other cattle, they'll have little to no health problems. I've had one sick calf in the last four years. _________________ The road goes on forever and the party never ends - REK
Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
frankthetank wrote:
Just an observation, but wouldn't grass fed cattle have "tougher" meat?
I've tried Buffalo (harvested on Indian Land in SD) and my oh my were those some tough steaks! burger was great/good jerky meat....???
No, grassfed beef is the best. Feedlot beef grows too fast because it is fed corn and soybean meal which is very high in protein. It changes the fiber fo the meat. Like softwoods that grow quickly versus hardwoods that grown more slowly, but the wood fibers are different. Believe me. Grassfed beef is a culinary delight. Not tough at all so long as it is aged properly as well. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3334 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
Pops wrote:
frankthetank wrote:
Just an observation, but wouldn't grass fed cattle have "tougher" meat?
Yes it does if raised to the same weight and processed the same as feedlot beef, because it has less marbling – fat in the muscle, as grain fed. And as well, the American housewife (whatever that has become) is accustomed to white fat, where grass fed is more yellow.
The modern method is geared to grain fed beef and the quickest processing. Heavier weigh carcasses and a fewer days of aging makes for more efficiency in capital expenses to the packers than smaller steers and a longer aging.
The point being, should all food be geared to maximizing the profits of the middleman?
Hiya Pops, I was feeding my addiction to GOOGLE last night and discovered something that to me is a new fact. Yak cattle only consume 67% of the feed for the same ammount of meat as beef cattle. Have you heard this or is it just a sales pitch from the Yak ranchers?
YAK RANCHING at the bottom of the page it talks about how efficient Yak are in converting grass/feed into meat. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Pops wrote:
In my very limited experience, all that I have used is an intranasal vaccine, basically a flu vaccine – TSV-2.
The most important thing to do for calves taken from mom is to be sure they get mom's first milk – in the first 10 hours is best. It is chock full of every antibody mom has.
Of course you must remember my advise is only worth what you pay for it.
Was thinking given the hilly nature of our land and how hard it is to re-plant that using various animals to graze would be preferable to just cattle due to their big hooves and indiscrimate trampling of anything they cannot eat. Would tend to favor deer, elk, sheep & goats on parts of the hills and of course rotation to prevent erosion and let the wild grasses regenerate. The problem with this type of rotation is fencing. Good enough fences to keep the critters in and of course the coyotes out. Within the perimeter fence can use 3-4 string and electric for the cattle, but need finer fencing for the sheep & goats. Any ideas on fencing? Prices per quarter/section? Just curious? Thanks. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Doly wrote:
MrBill wrote:
Would tend to favor deer, elk, sheep & goats on parts of the hills and of course rotation to prevent erosion and let the wild grasses regenerate.
What does one want deer and elk for?
Believe it or not, in spite of the overpopulation of deer in many parts of the US, people still raise them on ranches for venison sales to restaurants! _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Ludi wrote:
Doly wrote:
MrBill wrote:
Would tend to favor deer, elk, sheep & goats on parts of the hills and of course rotation to prevent erosion and let the wild grasses regenerate.
What does one want deer and elk for?
Believe it or not, in spite of the overpopulation of deer in many parts of the US, people still raise them on ranches for venison sales to restaurants!
A domestic market for venison as a specialty meat, especially value added products like deer sausage and venison jerky, but also as deer, elk (wapiti) and goats have lighter, smaller hooves, they do less damage to the native plants. Especially in low lying wet areas where cows tend to sink and cause a lot of erosion damage along water courses that degrade the wetlands environment as well.
Also, when speaking of scrub land and steeper hills not suitable for cultivation and or making hay, the goats, deer & elk can stomach a rougher diet of leaves, shrubs and coarse grasses that cattle will not eat, but trample. Therefore, you can afford to use marginal land not usually suitable for traditional agriculture. Think that in general peak oil will make protein from meat more expensive, so using marginal land is one alternative.
As well as being a source of woodland for either heat the fireplace or making ethanol. Also, the extra grazing will keep the bush where I am from thinned out and that in turn lessens the fire hazard.
Of course, the cost of fencing is an issue, especially those high fences needed to keep deer and elk in and animals (goats in/coyotes out) from digging under.
We also have the option of fish farming. We tried it. It is labor intensive, but doable. When the economics change, it will be nice to have some fresh fish protein in the diet as well if transportation makes alternatives too costly/unavailable. Just trying to use as much of the land in a sustainable manner as possible and a mix of domesticated and wild animals, plants and species is the best way to ensure all our grouse are not in one pasture. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Well I never heard of Yak Angus cross so I don’t have an idea – I wonder if they call them Yagus or Angak? I notice they are selling meat online, I’ve seen others doing the same with fancy breeds and grass-fed cattle. The trick is to find a niche market because you sure won’t find a buyer at the auction barn.
Not to cast a bad light on those folks - again I don’t know my Yak from a hole in the ground, but there is always the big new thing out there – Imu and Beefalo and Llama and the older folks will remember when uncle was gonna get rich raising Chinchillas in the garage. Anyway, the only ones that made anything on lots of those fads were the original breeders, but that’s just a generalization on my part and there might be lots of studies out there to the contrary.
Now to my current Hobby-Horse:
One of the main strategies of managed grazing (basically very high stocking rates for very short and infrequent periods on small paddocks) is to force the animals to eat everything in front of them. The appearance of a well-grazed plot is like it has been cut with a finish mower to a uniform height leaving the right amount for new growth depending on the type of grasses, legumes, etc.
The benefit is since they don’t have time to be selective and chew down only the good stuff and leave the bad, the diversity of the pasture can be preserved. As well, since they aren’t on any plot for a long period, trails, shade, water, etc don’t get as trampled as if they were used continuously.
Of course that’s all good in theory, my problem is getting enough animals on a paddock; even using a temporary cross fence my small calves – 3-400 lbs can’t keep up with the grass – I guess I need more calves! I have been only haying a portion of my fields - for my own use mostly and just cutting the rest with a brush hog (just a big lawn mower) and letting it fall. Hopefully, the mower mulches the grass enough that it will compost and not just turn into thatch – we’ll see.
As for fencing the other animals we have one wether - bought as a pet for our grand daughter and he pays attention to 5-strand barbed wire but laughs at the one strand of hot wire that keeps my calves where I put them – well mostly where I put them anyway. WisJim or I think Skymore could tell you more about that.
About 2 miles from here on a little back road is a fella that raises elk – he has about a 6 or 7 foot high welded-wire fence on T-posts. I’m not sure if you can buy posts that tall or if he had to make them up himself.
Well I gotta do some Mouse herding and then go out and brush-hog under my hot wires – my cheap little charger is really too small for the amount of fence I have and the wet grass has it pretty well shorted out! _________________ Make a plan and work it:
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