For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:59 am Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
It depends on the type of grass you have and what you run on it, but generally - according to the MO manual, 8-12 paddocks. They don’t necessarily need to be permanent and in fact the more flexible your layout the better.
I have 27ac of mostly fescue, temporarily divided into 6 plots, plus about 7ac of alfalfa I’m strip grazing right now. Even this very dry fall I’m not having a very hard time keeping 10, 7 weight steers and 10 weaned calves fairly happy. I learned quite a bit about layout in the class and will be redoing mine in the spring. A big deal is to have water – even temporary summer water available to each paddock, that and fencing are the biggest expense – and the part that takes the most head scratching.
I have a great big binder full of stuff that I could use to try and answer any questions. Try Googling NRCS MIG grazing. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 766 Location: Dead civilization walking
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
Pops wrote:
I attended a 4-day Management intensive Grazing class through the NRCS and University Extension this week. The main focus was how to feed animals on grass while minimizing other inputs.
Aside from overview presentations by just about every person in the NRCS, the main focus was on the mechanics of rotational grazing; water, fencing, forage estimating, stocking rates, etc.
Someone earlier in the thread wondered why this is supposedly such a radical new idea when they had been running cattle on grass for years. The point with management intensive is, instead of turning say, 20 head of steers out on 40ac and just letting them do their thing, you cross-fence (ether permanently or temporarily) that field into 8 or 12 small paddocks and move the animals to fresh forage every 2-3 days.
The difference in utilization of the forage increases from about 35% for continuous grazing to as high as 75% with a 12-paddock set-up.
The animals continuously have fresh new growth graze which is highest in food value. Additionally, the pasture benefits from extended periods of recovery with each paddock grazed only 2-3 days and rested for 15-30. The relatively heavy stocking rate forces the animals to be less selective, resulting in more even grazing. This reduces weeds and encourages plant diversity, and results in more even distribution of manure, less compaction and lower chances of erosion.
An additional and not small benefit is that by feeding the animals where the forage grows, most of the nutrients are returned directly to the soil instead of being exported in hay. The numbers cited were a $20 big bale of hay contains approximately $4-$6 of NPK.
It was interesting, from a PO perspective, how many times the costs and impacts of big machines, big fuel and fertilizer bills and big monocrop grain farming came up as the main reasons to put in a rotational system.
A presentation by a daemon economist on the topic of; bigger isn’t necessarily better, was a pleasant surprise.
As pip and cat mentioned there are cost sharing programs available for many improvements like planting warm season grasses, water and fencing. The course is a requirement for qualifying for the programs. The courses are held in just about every county in MO and I assume many other states.
Absolutely fascinating. I'm printing some of this out for permanent reference. I'd guess this could work with goats or sheep as well?
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
Sure, we visited one outfit that raised replacement heifers and meat goats as well. Since they like different plants (and this place tended to be woody anyway) they compliment each other. In fact goats and sheep will graze closer to cow flop than cows will.
You might be able to order the Missouri Grazing Manual – M157 if you are interested by calling (573) 882-7216 – I don’t know if you can but that is the only number on the book. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
Pops wrote:
You might be able to order the Missouri Grazing Manual – M157 if you are interested by calling (573) 882-7216 – I don’t know if you can but that is the only number on the book.
Missouri Grazing Manual Price is $18.00 _________________ All politics emanates from a barrel of oil. -- after Mirabeau
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
I'm really glad people are getting interested in this!
I'm currently grazing chickens, but next year plan to add milk goats and wool sheep.
But I need to put in a lot more fencing....Ugh....
With cattle it's easier to use permanent perimeter fencing and interior electric fencing, but with sheep and goats electric fencing isn't as reliable. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
Very good to hear that the old grazing rotation disciplines are getting official support in the US.
Here in the marches of Wales the fields were perhaps 4 acres on average, and further west much smaller - on the coastal watershed 1 acre fields were not uncommon. In the lowlands the damage of field-boundaries' destruction has been widespread, but much less so in the hills and uplands.
The fashion (and the subsidy) for ripping out the stone walls and hedges recently went into reverse (the govt. is now paying to put them back ! ) so sustainable production rates have started to recover. (Further evidence that far from knowing best, Nanny-state knows sweet FA).
FWIW the best of the local shepherds seem to graze for a week or so before resting a field for a month or so, but the weather is getting so unsettled the old patterns are getting thrown about as growth rates vary unpredictably.
Plainly the issue of fencing under PO, with steel prices escalating, is going to be a critical factor pushing the restoration of the hedgerows, but the labour-costs, and skill, of re-building dry-stone walls puts them well out of reach for the foreseeable future.
Given that a well layed hedge won't let a rabbit through (at first), and will keep livestock secure, I wonder how common this art is in the US ?
[Google : Laid Hedges - Hedge-laying - Plashing ] ?
The other advantage is that within 2 years a layed hedge grown on a low earth bank will be 6 or 7 foot high, giving wind-shelter for 12 times its hight (rule of thumb) i.e. say 25 yards, and this extends in subsequent years. Over here this is counted as important not only in sheltering livestock and advancing spring growth, but also in slowing surface windspeeds and so reducing soil-moisture loss, which in turn allows better summer growth. Also some free distribution of nutrients by leaf-fall and increased bird-droppings.
More birdsong too !
regards,
Backstop _________________ "The best of conservation . . . is written not with a pen but with an axe."
(from "A Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold, 1948.
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 139 Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
My family and i live in Minneapolis, MN, and we buy our beef from a farmer who raises grass-fed cattle. We think it is very good, and so do many other people.
The farmers bring food in for farmers markets, and can always pack a box to order in advance if someone has specific preferences.
I find that the grass-fed beef is not a tough if I don't cook it quite as well done as the corn-fed/supermarket beef.
Does anyone lese have expertise on the cooking end of things?
(Not to hijack the thread, but maybe as a little aside?) _________________ pedaling for peace and ecojustice -- Gary
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
No Gary, that’s fine. I asked the PhD who runs the Extension Research farm near here about direct market, grass fed beef and he said, weeeeell, there are some folks who do it…
Point being: unless there is support from the USDA (I mean political support) to say something, it’s better to keep quiet and keep the job.
I would be happy to hear from folks with experience anywhere from raising to eating in this thread – I can always split the topics out later.
Backstop, here they used a tree - locally called Hedgewood or Osage Orange to lay boundries or seperate fields. It is still plentiful, though now used mostly for posts by the old timers. Was there a thread somewhere regarding hedgerows? If not, please start one. I have read some about laying one but…
And isn’t it interesting, at least in my mind, that on the fringes, and even perhaps by accident in the government, there are people listening to the knowledge of the past. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: Re: [Sm. Farm] Grass Farming
Thanks for the link to the MO manual ab0di, most of what is covered in the book is very general information is applicable anywhere, there are of course grass varieties suggested that might be unsuited for other climates – just a thought.
BTW, I spent 8 hours yesterday trenching for 1,000’ of waterline to install a freeze-proof tank at the neighbor’s place – the soil is dry and hard as a rock and my head is filled with dust this morning. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Cattle Questions
CWT is a hunderd pounds of weight
Feeders are young cattle in the 500-800lb range that are put in feed lots on concentrated feed to gain weight to become 'fed' cattle ready for market.
How many cattle per acre range fed ?......the question is usually how many acres per cow, and would depend entirely on the quality of range. That would likely vary from slightly under one acre in real lush, long seasoned, high rain type area to 10-15ac on drier, sorrier ground.
How many heifers a year ? You know a heifer is a female calf, right ?.....I don't know if the odds of a calf are 50-50 on male or female, or something different, but in either case, the gestation period is about 9months, and a cow may breed back in as little as a month after birthing, so about the BEST case would be one calf of SOME sex every 11 months or so......but you'd be closer to allowing a year or better on average.
I don't have a clue about range fed and prices...I only sell a few a year at a local market and they only go by weight and condition......nobody askes how they were fed.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Cattle Questions
I can answer a few.
<What is CWT?>
That's hundred weight, a 500# animal is a 5 weight.
<What is the difference between Feeder and Fed Cattle?>
A feeder is a weaned calf ready to put on grass, a finished one is ready for slaughter.
<How many cattle can typically fit per acre (range fed)?>
REALLY depends, from 1-2 per ac to 1 per 20ac
<How many heffers will a cow birth typically in a year?>
Well, on average .5 (a heifer is a female calf )
<Is range fed cattle ranching becoming more profitable since beef prices are rising? >
Since the border with Canada has been closed due to Mad Cow, prices have been high; also a couple of good grain harvest have kept feed costs low. Next year energy prices and natural gas problems could change things dramatically.
<Can you sell range fed cattle for as much as grain/corn fed? Or do buyers not like the range fed type?>
Most beef cattle are raised as stockers (calves 400-700 lbs or so) on grass and then sold to feedlots for finishing on 100% grain and concentrates.
People are used to white fat, grass finished beef has yellow fat and not as much marbling - USDA beef classifications are based on marbling so grass finished will never grade as well under the current system. As well, beef processing is geared to grain fed beef which needs much less aging than grass finished to be nearly as tender. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Cattle Questions
haha I thought all calves were called heffers, please pardon my ignorance.
thanks for your answers
More questions, I see that there are different prices for "carcass weight". My idea of a carcass is whats left after it's been stripped of it's meat. Or do I have that backward?
I'm assuming overheard costs are high with raising cattle. i.e. medications, deworming, fence upkeep, etc?
Any suggestions on a good how to book on cattle ranching?
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Cattle Questions
I'm a total novice.
Our milking Devon gives birth once a year (spring-summer).
Her and her heifer's diet consists mostly of grass and clover, + mixed grass hay in the winter, + a couple pounds of commercial grain/day.
As for "overhead costs": we've never kept track. Perhaps we don't want to know.
I just know I like raw milk, homemade yogurt and cottage cheese, and real BUTTER. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
)
