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RMForbes
Tar Sands
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 47
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas |
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| mhuppertz wrote: |
| Quote: | | It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle. |
Translation, math says bumble bees CAN fly. |
Actually more like original mathimatical model -- wrong, updated mathimatical model to incompass previously ignored factors --correct. Sounds like what I've been saying all along about HHO. Right JRP3? |
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JRP3
Heavy Crude
Joined: Oct 23, 2006
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racer88
Coal
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
Posts: 15
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Stratous
Coal
Joined: Jul 07, 2008
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RMForbes
Tar Sands
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| Thanks Stratous --- Great forum |
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Sans
Coal
Joined: Jul 31, 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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I simply want to comment without taking a side on the HHO issue that it amazes me how quickly so many want to criticize other peoples work. Granted there are lots of scams out there.
I have personally worked on a been a part of inventions that are legitimate and profitable yet all the so called "experts" still try to trash it.
That's ok. The legitimate ones will generate profits while helping people and the "experts" can go on stroking their ego by making unwarranted criticism.
Less ego, more facts.
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http://www.strombergandsanborn.com |
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bbloise
Coal
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas |
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| gnm wrote: | Tell you what RMForbes. I'll try it. On my crappy dodge pickup. Gets about 10-12mpg consistently.
The ...snip....snip.....the battery.
I remain skeptical....
-G |
A thought for all. When building your hho generator, remember that only 1.24 Volts will produce hho gas. Any voltage above that only creates heat. Many systems are being built this way and wasting a lot of energy and putting extra load on their alternators. I recommend that you use a DC-DC convertor that will provide a constant current source. I have found an excellent product that gives an output between 3 v - 6.5 v at a constant current of 30 amps with a draw from your alternator of only 10 - 12 amps. NOTE: Almost all of the 30 amps will produce hho with very little heat produced. This will give you a MUCH higher output of hho and therefore give you a much better and more effiecient burn of the gasoline. On my 1972 Porsche 914, I have two Weber carbs and no pollution junk or catalytic convertors. with the HHO generator, I am getting between 50 - 70 mpg depending on how I am driving it. 
here is the link for the dc-dc convertor
http://www.powerstream.com/dc-hydrogen.htm
bob bloise
615-818-9736 |
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JRP3
Heavy Crude
Joined: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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Seems to me that the DC/DC converter will introduce further inefficiencies into the mix, the converter will have losses.
The link even shows you lose 30% of the input power, how is that going to help your efficiency?
Not to mention that using 12 volts should allow you to use lower amperage for the same amount of power.
_________________
The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
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Building the AMPhibian
http://amp-phibian.blogspot.com/
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bbloise
Coal
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| JRP3 wrote: | | Seems to me that the DC/DC converter will introduce further inefficiencies into the mix, the converter will have losses. Not to mention that using 12 volts should allow you to use lower amperage for the same amount of power. |
Do the math. connecting directly to the battery getting a 10 amp draw gives you 12V and 10 amps to the hho generator. approximately 1 to 1.5 amps will produce hho gas. that leaves 8.5 to 9 amps to produce heat. with the convertor running at 90% efficiency, you get 27 amps to produce hho gas and only 3 amps to produce heat using the exact same 12V 10 amp input.
The convertor will, of course, have some losses but they are very small compared to the gain that you get with the additional production of hho gas.
EDIT NOTE: I just re-read my earlier post and this post and realized that I hadn't pointed out that the hho generator produces hho gas at 1.24 volts per cell. Any voltage above that only creates heat. The makers of that convertor tested and found that approximately 4 volts was the optimal voltage and best compromise for the production of hho gas.
bob bloise
615-818-9736 |
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JRP3
Heavy Crude
Joined: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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10 amps times 12 volts gives you 120 watts of power.
30 amps times 4 volts gives you 120 watts of power.
How does the converter save you any power since the alternator has to put out the same amount of power in both situations, not counting the inefficiencies of the converter? And where did you get 90% efficiency for the converter?
_________________
The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Building the AMPhibian
http://amp-phibian.blogspot.com/
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/ |
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bbloise
Coal
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| JRP3 wrote: | 10 amps times 12 volts gives you 120 watts of power.
30 amps times 4 volts gives you 120 watts of power.
How does the converter save you any power since the alternator has to put out the same amount of power in both situations, not counting the inefficiencies of the converter? And where did you get 90% efficiency for the converter? |
I believe that you are missing the point. When you are trying to generate hho gas by connecting directly to the battery, you are wasting power. 1.24 V is all that is needed across the plates to produce hho gas. Any voltage above 1.24 v goes into producing heat. So when you are inputing 12 V at 10 amps, you are only getting a production of hho gas from about 1 to 1.5 amps. the 8.5 to 9 amps left over is only producing heat. The company that built the convertor did extensive testing and found that 4 volts gave optimal performance for the production of hho gas. Yes, it is the same power (less losses in the convertor), however, remember that now the 30 amps being applied is giving you 90% efficiency in producing the hho gas. that means that 27 amps goes into the production of hho gas INSTEAD of only 1.5 amps. With the convertor, you are only wasting 3 amps on heat INSTEAD of 9 amps.
Do you have any 1.24 V ni-cad batteries? try charging them off your alternator in your car WITHOUT a converter. Will you agree that you will 'cook' the batteries by applying 12 V across them INSTEAD of 1.24 V? Don't you think that MOST of the current going through those little batteries will only create heat instead of a charge? Why put 12 V across an electrolyser that should only have 1.24 V? Your next question is why do they make the convertor run at 4V. that is because of the heavy current flow (30 amps) there will some voltage drops across the different connections going to the electrolyser.
bob bloise
615-818-9736 |
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RMForbes
Tar Sands
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| Why not just add more cells in series? You get more surface area and gas production without losing energy to heat. |
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bbloise
Coal
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| RMForbes wrote: | | Why not just add more cells in series? You get more surface area and gas production without losing energy to heat. |
Absolutely true, BUT, if you don't have room for more cells then the power convertor works. In my Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland I barely have room for one. |
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oldeczecho
Coal
Joined: Aug 15, 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| I just have built an HHO generator (Smack's Booster) and I am waiting for my chemicals to arrive to fire it up and break it in. The car is all prepared as to wiring and stuff. Since I carefully monitor gas mileage I will know immediately (in one tankful) if the thing is a scam or something that actually works. My research indicates I may have to tinker with my primary O2 sensor. I may have a mechanical fix for that cause I really don't want to start splicing wires . UPS- bring me my KOH! |
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bbloise
Coal
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas |
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| oldeczecho wrote: | | I just have built an HHO generator (Smack's Booster) and I am waiting for my chemicals to arrive to fire it up and break it in. The car is all prepared as to wiring and stuff. Since I carefully monitor gas mileage I will know immediately (in one tankful) if the thing is a scam or something that actually works. My research indicates I may have to tinker with my primary O2 sensor. I may have a mechanical fix for that cause I really don't want to start splicing wires . UPS- bring me my KOH! |
KOH is an excellent catalyst, however, I have heard that you should run two bubblers to 'wash' the gas to prevent damage to your engine.
good luck with it, I hope it works out for you. In my 1972 Porsche 914 with a 1.7 liter, Weber carbs and absolutely no pollution junk I am getting between 50 - 70 mpg depending on how I drive it. that is a BIG improvement over the normal 34 mpg.
I installed the exact same unit on my Jeep Overland while my Porsche is having some repair work done (welding a new clutch cable tube) and the jeep only got about 25% gain in fuel economy. BUT, I have noticed that after a few days of running the economy is going DOWN close to where it was before I installed the electrolyser. I beleive the PCM is 'learning' the difference and is dumping more fuel in to 'enrich' the mixture. Tomorrow morning I am going to install a potentiometer as a voltage divider in the MAP sensor circuit to adjust the mixture. I am installing an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge that should assist me so that I don't lean it out too much. I wouldn't want to burn up the motor to save a buck on gasoline. |
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