Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas

Submarines · Coal Joined: May 07, 2008 Posts: 9

Just reading the crap that GNM spews, spun me up tight enough to go out and buy one of these units to experiment with myself. It is irritating to hear these "know it alls" spewing their garbage, using phrases like "its impossible," or "your an idiot for wasting your money." There are people who are actually getting results. I should be recieving mine tomorrow and will start experimenting.

The only idiots that are out there are the ones that already know everything there is to know about everything, and refuse to look at anyone else's results and will not experiment. SOund like someone we all know?

Submarines · Coal Joined: May 07, 2008 Posts: 9

[quote="SolarDave"]

gnm · Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

Perf you are getting nowhere. Its a closed system because

fuel -> engine -> motion

The losses in there are well known. An Ice is like 33% efficient yes?

What you are doing is introducing complexity in the system ( which would equal losses at every conversion) and then claiming that the fuel you are burning is burning so much more efficiently by introducing minuscule amounts of HHO as to overcome all the previous systemic losses of conversion. Please cite any article which shows a 30% increase in efficiency by introducing H2 into an ICE. And not from HHO hackers.

You really think you're smarter than Toyota's research labs? Laughing

Go ahead, waste your money. Rolling Eyes

-G
_________________
All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!

gnm · Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

perf · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 17

you know, usually i don't come on so hard, but i'm utterly disgusted at the insults to the very notion of the scientific method.

any idea that has any merit whatsoever, even a long shot, deserves a chance at testing.

that's the idea with science.

hypothesis, tests, results.

the fact of the matter is people are getting results by trying this system.

i myself have gotten results from this system.

i'm not claiming to know how the chemistry works, in fact i'm fairly ignorant on chemistry.

that said, i'm an extremely logical person. and the facts say that somehow through some miracle, this system is making an engine more efficient.

even if it's just working because i believe it is, i give a crap. if you pardon my french. i have measurable real world results.

and if it's just my believing giving me those measurable results every time no matter what, i'm just going to believe harder. catch my drift?

rmforbes put an excellent article on here that should sum up one theory very nicely.

note the word theory though.

science is theories. and anyone getting on here and saying "it won't work, don't bother trying, even if you did get results. pooh!"

is an absolute drag on the forward thinking mind.

they told the wright brothers the same thing.

and solardave is talking about burning hydrogen.

i'm talking about the way this gas mixes with the combustibles already in the chamber.

show me the te saying it won't increase efficiency.

solar dave, please read the article posted by rmforbes. and i'm not obfuscating anything. talk to gnm about that. i simply cut and pasted the text from wikipedia. bringing up the second law of thermodynamics in the first place is purely obfuscation.

i notice that you didn't mention the part that was relevant, that the second law of thermodynamics has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

and to say adding complexity to the system is a bad idea because it's inefficient is utter idiocy.

so a fuel injector is a bad idea? a pcv flow is a bad idea? an onboard computer monitoring system is a bad idea?

those are all comlicating the system, and every one increases efficiency.

and i'm not talking about adding h2 i'm talking about adding whatever comes out of these jars.

real world test, real world results.

and i don't think i'm smarter than toyota's research labs, just more honest.

toyota is a corporation like any other. profit is the bottom line. that's the problem in an out of control capitalistic environment.

we could have those genius scientists working on electric cars for all of us run on windmill power.

it's possible with today's technology, and i mean easy.

but we don't do we?

because where's the profit?

toyota r and d is not interested in making us all the perfect car for the environment and our pocketbook.

they're in the club with the rest of the good old boys maximizing profits.

perf · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 17

tell you what.

you wise guys out there just sit in your armchairs talking about how it won't work.

i'll keep posting my real results here.

there's a difference between real science and dogma.

all of the most important discoveries in the history of mankind faced people like you.

they probably always will.

but have faith people. we have more power than they'd like us to believe.

keep on plugging away.

anyone who has results with a system they're using, please post and i'll do the same.

anyone who's tried it and not gotten positive results i'd love to hear from you too, as i've not hear that voice once yet.

gnm · Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

perf · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 17

the question is whether the .2 HP load on the alternator is using more energy than the system provides by improving combustion efficiency.

it definitely increases horsepower by more than .2

it definately reduces emissions, which alone is enough to justify .2 HP

and you are certainly not losing power, you're gaining power.

real world experimentation, real world results.

tested and proven.

through testing.

not theory.

and it's true that transferring water to its respective elements is far from perfectly efficient.

but you are getting enough gas out of the deal to augment your combustion in such a way that it improves the overall combustion efficiency.

for only .2 HP.

which you can not notice at all in real world tests.

if i turn up my stereo i use more amperage than that. and feel absolutely no difference in performance.

however, when i turn on my hho system i feel more power, feel the engine tone change, and notice that suddenly i'm going far more miles before i have to put gas in the tank.

such a mystery.

no one balks at putting in a pair of fog lights. no one balks at putting in a stereo amp. no one hesitates to open their sun roof.

these things all draw more amperage than this system.

if you used your considerable scientific knowledge to figure out why this works we'd all be better served.

but as far as whether or not it works?

the proof is in the pudding.

your theoretical pudding is without substance.

and for the record, i'm not suggesting it's not hydrogen.

surely it's hydrogen and oxygen, and maybe traces of other gases from the sodium hydroxide or baking soda or whatever.

as far as the chemical make-up? i'm not a chemist and i offer no theory.

perf · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 17

also for the record, the second law of thermodynamics is infinitely mutable.

it's true to a degree in a certain experiment, a different degree in another.

it's only truly a law over huge amounts of time with huge amounts of matter.

there is no such thing as a closed system in the real world.

only sets of information that humans have made up to study a subject.

more importantly, no one's arguing that there's magic energy here.

everything is accounted for neatly.

only efficiency changes.

RMForbes · Tar Sands Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 55

No it's not just H2, again I quote;

the faster burn is most likely due to the presence of nascent (atomic) hydrogen and nascent oxygen, which initiate a chain reaction. ....... Electrolysis produces "nascent" hydrogen, and oxygen, which may or may not reach the engine as nascent. It is more probable that high temperature in the combustion chamber breaks down the oxygen and hydrogen molecules into free radicals (i.e. nascent). The chain reaction initiated by those free radicals will cause a simultaneous ignition of all the primary fuel. As it all ignites at once, no flame front can exist and without it there is no pressure wave to create knock.

perf · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 17

rmforbes-

are these your thoughts or your research?

that sounds like the best explaination i've heard yet.

Washburn · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 4

According to this patent filed by a company in Alaska, the ideal ratio of the HHO is between 50 and 90 cubic centimeters per minute per liter, with about 75 being ideal. Outside this range the benefit drops substantially. On a 5.2 liter IEC I believe the math would work out to be .39 liters HHO per minute is ideal. This cell is marketed for emission control on diesel gen sets. The tests clearly show an increase in HORSEPOWER and a reduction in fuel consumption and emissions. Go look for yourself:
It gets interesting about page 8.
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/images4/PCT-PAGES/2006/342006/06088939/06088939.pdf

Somebody tell me where there's a forum for those who are interested in helping one another get one of these rigs tuned in.

Submarines · Coal Joined: May 07, 2008 Posts: 9

chipjumper · Coal Joined: May 16, 2008 Posts: 2

I understand the general concept of slap-together HHO's in peoples cars. I understand gnm's arguments --- backing up the law of science.

What I am puzzled by is the bottom line.

I have scoured about 15 forums. I do read the same stories, "increased fuel economy by 15%" etc.

I have not purchased or built a system yet and I am skeptical on this entire operation in regards to its advertised benefits but it is the bottom line that just stands out.

The argument that it is mental (better driving habits) does make sense but it doesn't account for the huge gains that all of these random people, across 15 different message boards, all have in common.

I will ask a co-worker of mine who is a engineering student at Kettering University (formerly General Motors Institute). I will ask him if anyone has tried this in a controlled environment (lab).

RMForbes · Tar Sands Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 55

No, I got the information on this forum from a post from Washburn on May 13th. Here's the link;

http://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/hydrogen_injection.pdf