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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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vtsnowedin
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:54 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1394
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dohboi wrote: Thanks for the info on shipping. Is this based on your casual conversations with sailors, or do you have a confirmatory link? In general, though, these practices were based on times when there was a lot of old ice and you couldn't know where it was. So prudence would dictate that you avoid the risk of bumping into it. The original article talks about most of the existing ice as being not only new and thin but "rotten" (I believe that was the word), which I take to mean very thin and porous. It sounded as though they had no trouble moving through it pretty fast.
I share your hope that there are some phantom negative feedbacks waiting in the wings to save us from our own sorry *sses. I would fell more comfortable knowing if there was good understanding of such feedbacks.
Thinning, of course, did continue after 2007, even if coverage didn't. I don't really expect any feedback to have consistent effects every year. Year-to-year data of just about any type is essentially static, something that is easily overlooked by both sides. The original article does not agree with the actual conditions reported by the Canadian ice service this summer. In short it is nothing more then a pile of BS that could have been written from the desk back at the office. They went out with their minds already made up. Boats that actually traveled through the NW passage had quite a time of it and saw more then enough ice to last them a life time. This from their blogs. The only sailors I know are in the Navy in subs so what I put forward above(with an appropriate disclaimer I might add) is from my reading here on the net. The explanations and foot notes on the various ice service charts are quite informative but I can't pinpoint now where I read the 15 knot rule.
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dohboi
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:10 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 2096
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Sorry, I didn't realize that you were completely discarding the whole article. A case of disregarding evidence that goes against your own cherished position? On another note, I saw this article in the Guardian and thought of you. Are you a writer for these guys? Hope it makes your day, because that's what I'm here all about link
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vtsnowedin
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:53 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1394
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dohboi wrote: Sorry, I didn't realize that you were completely discarding the whole article. A case of disregarding evidence that goes against your own cherished position? On another note, I saw this article in the Guardian and thought of you. Are you a writer for these guys? Hope it makes your day, because that's what I'm here all about linkI had read that and must agree that overstatement breeds contempt. lets approach this from the other side shall we. What in that article (Cabrone's) do you find of value and convincing?
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dohboi
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:41 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 2096
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That's like asking someone to prove their innocence. It is more interesting that you immediately distrust something coming from a source that seems to be completely legitimate and that confirms findings widely reported elsewhere. It also just happens to go against what you want to hear.
I just find it a curious coincidence.
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vtsnowedin
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:41 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1394
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dohboi wrote: That's like asking someone to prove their innocence. It is more interesting that you immediately distrust something coming from a source that seems to be completely legitimate and that confirms findings widely reported elsewhere. It also just happens to go against what you want to hear.
I just find it a curious coincidence. People prove their innocence all the time. It's called an alibi that holds up. What's to mistrust. They give no figures other then the preposterous 240 ft.thick sea ice. no course, no log of positions or observations nothing just the grand statement that they couldn't find any, And then there is the reliable source that states that multi year ice was and is just north of Tuktoyaktuk there only stated location.
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Cid_Yama
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:19 pm |
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 2862 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
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vtsnowedin, Your youth shows. When I was growing up, the Arctic Ice cap was treated as a permanent feature, much like a mountain range, in our schools. You could not have found anyone who would have even considered it might ever melt. And yes, there were areas of the cap thousands of years old and piled to the height of a couple hundred feet. You may choose not to believe it, but some of us were actually alive then. Sorry if that's inconvienient for you. And this from 2 years ago: Churchill port welcomes first-ever Russian shipmentQuote: A ship loaded with fertilizer from northwestern Russia arrived in Churchill on Wednesday, the first time the northern Manitoba port has received goods from Russia.
The shipment, on the Murmansk Shipping Co. vessel the Kapital Sviridov, is considered the first in an "Arctic bridge" linking Canadian Prairie and Russian markets.
The establishment of an Arctic bridge would be a win-win situation for everyone involved, said Rob Huebert, associate director of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary.
Churchill Mayor Mike Spence predicted the Russian shipment will be the first of many, adding that Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have also expressed interest in future trade through the port.
It sends the message that the Port of Churchill is viable. It's open for business, and we need to build on that," he said. linkI know it's rough when the facts keep getting in the way.
_________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
“I had to choose what I was going to do. Either go down and let that define me or step up and rewrite history.” - G.W. Bush
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Cid_Yama
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:37 pm |
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 2862 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
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Quote: Sea ice extent grew throughout October, as the temperature dropped and darkness returned to the Arctic. However, a period of relatively slow ice growth early in the month kept the average ice extent low—October 2009 had the second-lowest ice extent for the month over the 1979 to 2009 period.
Sea ice extent averaged over October 2009 was 7.50 square kilometers (2.90 square miles). This was 1.79 million square kilometers (691,000 square miles) below the 1979 to 2000 mean for October, but 730,000 square kilometers (282,000 square miles) above the record low for the month, which occurred in October 2007.
For most of the month, a high-pressure system sat over the Beaufort Sea, while unusually low pressure dominated the Barents Sea. In accord with Buys Ballot's Law, the area between the two pressure centers saw strong, warm winds blowing from the south. This wind pattern, in conjunction with extensive open water, led to a mean monthly temperature as high as 6 degrees Celsius (11 degrees Fahrenheit) above average in the region between the high and low pressure anomalies. link
_________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
“I had to choose what I was going to do. Either go down and let that define me or step up and rewrite history.” - G.W. Bush
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vtsnowedin
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:03 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1394
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Cid_Yama wrote: vtsnowedin, Your youth shows. When I was growing up, the Arctic Ice cap was treated as a permanent feature, much like a mountain range, in our schools. You could not have found anyone who would have even considered it might ever melt. And yes, there were areas of the cap thousands of years old and piled to the height of a couple hundred feet. You may choose not to believe it, but some of us were actually alive then. Sorry if that's inconvienient for you. And this from 2 years ago: Churchill port welcomes first-ever Russian shipmentQuote: A ship loaded with fertilizer from northwestern Russia arrived in Churchill on Wednesday, the first time the northern Manitoba port has received goods from Russia.
The shipment, on the Murmansk Shipping Co. vessel the Kapital Sviridov, is considered the first in an "Arctic bridge" linking Canadian Prairie and Russian markets.
The establishment of an Arctic bridge would be a win-win situation for everyone involved, said Rob Huebert, associate director of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary.
Churchill Mayor Mike Spence predicted the Russian shipment will be the first of many, adding that Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have also expressed interest in future trade through the port.
It sends the message that the Port of Churchill is viable. It's open for business, and we need to build on that," he said. linkI know it's rough when the facts keep getting in the way. \ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill, ... sportationChurchill has been a port for quite a while. Not exactly news when a ship shows up at a well established port. The town is the northern terminus of the Hudson Bay Railway owned by railroad holding company, OmniTRAX. It is a useful link in the export of Canadian grain to European markets, with rail-sea connections made at Churchill. The Port of Churchill is also owned by OmniTRAX. It is Canada's principal seaport on the Arctic Ocean. The Hudson Bay, a passenger train operated by Via Rail provides service between the Churchill railway station and Union Station in Winnipeg 3 times a week, a 1,700 km (1,100 mi) journey that takes about 40 hours.[18][19] Via Rail train in Churchill stationChurchill is also the major seaport in Canada for the Eastern Arctic. Marine transportation companies, Northern Transportation Company Limited[20] (NTCL), headquartered in Hay River, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut Sealink and Supply[21] (NSSI), both have bases in Churchill and provide sealift to the Eastern Arctic and to a few Central Arctic communities. There are no roads from Churchill leading to the rest of Canada. Churchill is serviced by two scheduled airlines offering flights to and from Winnipeg and to points north of Churchill in Nunavut. Calm Air offers service from Churchill Airport with daily flights to Winnipeg and the Kivalliq Region of Nunavut. Kivalliq Air provides direct flights six days per week between Churchill and Winnipeg and connections to all communities in the Kivalliq Region of Nunavut. [edit] Local media
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Cid_Yama
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:57 pm |
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 2862 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
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It's news when is comes from Murmansk.
The port(and rail line) has been expanded in anticipation of increased shipping.
You are a fool.
_________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
“I had to choose what I was going to do. Either go down and let that define me or step up and rewrite history.” - G.W. Bush
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GoghGoner
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:58 am |
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 656
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The NSIDC update also included this tidbit that I didn't know -- it might have been posted, if so sorry for the redundancy. Quote: A new study by Ian Simmonds and Kevin Keay, at the University of Melbourne in Australia, finds connections between the decline in September sea ice extent and the characteristics of Arctic storms. As ice extent has decreased, Arctic storms have shown a tendency to become more intense, especially in the last few years. The study suggests that low September ice extent, with extensive areas of open water, provides more energy to autumn storms, allowing them to become stronger. The stronger storms also help to break up the ice.
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GoghGoner
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:11 am |
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 656
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New record low sea ice extent for November 5th -- according to IJIS web site.
Tangentially, El Nino value was at 1.5 and increasing this past week -- thinking global temps will exceed any previous record next year. Skeptics on the run but it doesn't matter anymore -- cannot stop a runaway train.
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Cid_Yama
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:24 am |
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 2862 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
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Yes, broke through the 2007 track yesterday and is now matching the 2007 record low track. chartAnd yes, they are predicting record high temps for next year. A confluence of factors should just about guarantee significant record low ice extent next year. Watching for that record low maximum.
_________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
“I had to choose what I was going to do. Either go down and let that define me or step up and rewrite history.” - G.W. Bush
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dohboi
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:24 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 2096
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So even for ice extent this year did end up setting a new record. Add that to the reduction in thickness and we have a very much reduced ice cap.
This of course will not prevent denialists from prevaricating in various ways. When one is determined not to see an awful truth, one is generally successful.
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vtsnowedin
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:30 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1394
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 Here is a interesting bit that discusses current ice thickness etc. http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/seaice.html Sea ice age and thickness The age of the ice is another key descriptor of the state of the sea ice cover, since older ice tends to be thicker and more resilient than younger ice. A simple two-stage approach classifies sea ice into first year and multiyear ice. First-year is ice that has not yet survived a summer melt season, while multi-year ice has survived at least one summer and can be several years old. Satellite derived maps of ice age for March of 2007, 2008, and 2009 are presented in Figure S3. Figure S3. Arctic sea ice distribution in March of 2007, 2008, and 2009. Multiyear ice is in white, mixed ice aqua, first-year ice teal, and ice with melting surface red. Dark blue is for open water and brown for land. From a combination of AVHRR and SSM/I satellite observations and results from drifting ice buoys. (courtesy of Son Nghiem) In the past decade, the extent of multiyear sea ice rapidly reduced at a rate of 1.5 x 106 km2 per decade, triple the reduction rate during the three previous decades (1970-2000). Springtime multiyear ice extent was the lowest in 2008 in the QuikSCAT data record since 2000. QuikSCAT results in March 2009 showed a multiyear ice extent of 3.0 ± 0.2 million km2. This was 0.3 million km2 larger than the multiyear ice extent on the same date in 2008, even though the total sea ice extent was similar in the spring of 2008 and 2009. While the multiyear ice extent was similar in March 2008 and 2009, its distribution was quite different. More specifically, in 2008 there was a significant amount of multiyear ice the Beaufort Sea and in 2009 there was a large amount of multiyear ice the central Arctic Ocean. Recent estimates of Arctic Ocean sea ice thickness from satellite altimetry show a remarkable overall thinning of ~0.6 m in ice thickness between 2004 and 2008 (Figure. S4a). In contrast, the average thickness of the thinner first-year ice in mid-winter (~2 m), did not exhibit a downward trend. Seasonal ice is an important component covered more than two-thirds of the Arctic Ocean in 2008. The total multiyear ice volume in the winter experienced a net loss of more than 40% in the four years since 2005 while the first year ice cover gained volume due to increased overall coverage of the Arctic Ocean. The declines in total volume and average thickness (black line in Figure S4a) are explained almost entirely by thinning and loss of multiyear sea ice due to melting and ice export. These changes have resulted in seasonal ice becoming the dominant Arctic sea ice type, both in terms of area coverage and of volume. snip.
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Quinny
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Post subject: Re: Record Sea Ice Loss in Arctic 2009 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:50 am |
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1482
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Interesting, have you changed your position?
_________________ Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
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